Include

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by Hank

You really are a moron, aren't you...

Look you twat, had I previously been calling you names???

So lay off it alright.

Originally Posted by Hank

First, go get your little dictionary and define the following words, because I know you do not know what the mean:
Inertia
Velocity
Gravity
Centripetal Force
Kinetic Energy

After you've done that, TRY and follow me here. Yet, I bet you STILL do not understand.

Yeah you right as a professional engineer and holding a BSc I have no idea of any of those terms

Originally Posted by Hank

Take your dumb ass cone idea

More insults, gee you are being a real baby about this aren’t you.

Originally Posted by Hank

and imagine how is it set up. What does the cone allow the spring to do? Unseat, right?

WRONG

You see your argument is flawed from the start, the spring ONLY unseats at maximum articulation, not at any other time!!!!!

Originally Posted by Hank

There is not restrain on the spring either, right? It just falls out.

It is designed too

Originally Posted by Hank

By the spring just falling out, your limiting factor is going to be either the shock or the control arm.

Wrong AGAIN. The limiting factor will always be the shock even on a stock setup or a retained spring setup. The shock is rigid and unless it breaks it will only extend to its maximum.

Sure on extreme setups the control arm can limit movement but this is just due to limitations rather than design, hence you can get cranked trailing arms and rose jointed trailing arms.

A spring does not limit travel by design, that’s because on automotive vehicles the springs are used under compression not tension. Meaning a vehicle sitting level loads the spring by compressing/squashing it. As the wheel drops when flexing the spring extends, however it does not stretch by all that much unless it is being over used, too much tension. But the more force applied would make the spring longer and longer until it was not a coil. So for the spring to really limit travel it would probably be in the region of 3 or 4 times the length of the coiled spring in it’s natural relaxed state.

Now this ISN’T a go at all. But I think because you seem to be miss-understanding how the suspension works you are having unfounded biased and incorrect views towards certain setups. Come on be a man, own up and say “hay I got it wrong lads, sorry”.

Originally Posted by Hank

Basically, your truck is in an "uncontrolled" "body lean" when your in a position to the effect of a spring dropping out; Not always, but a big percentage of the time.

But it ISN’T uncontrolled, if it where all these vehicles running dislocation cones would keep falling over like Lemmings of a bridge.

But you don’t, and why? Because they are full stable.

Originally Posted by Hank

On the flip side, there is noting supporting the side of the vehicle when the spring is dropped. The shock surly is not doing it.

Why is a shock not offering support?

And appear to be getting confused with IRS and live axle setups.

With a live rear as one side pushes up the other pushes down.

SIMPLE!

Originally Posted by Hank

Let's say you're rolling down a trail or rock garden. The front end dips into a hole and the rear corner begins to come up. As the body rolls (Inertia) the gravity and kinetic energy will continue to "roll" the body in the direction closest to the ground. In in un-retained truck, what will stop the kinetic energy? The cone?? The shock? The control arm? The weight of the tire? The springs?

AGAIN it’s not 100% the spring which stops movement like this, you really need to go and see some vehicles running dislocation cones if you can’t see this.

Again, if you where right, NEARLY EVERY Land Rover competing in non ARC events would topple over at the first dip because nearly all of them run dislocation cones.

But once more they don’t!!!!!

If you really want to know what stops the inertia it’s the front suspension, YES the front!!!

The weight transfer is over the front of the vehicle if the front has gone into a dip, what a stock or retained spring setup will do is lean and tilt forward until the rear suspension is at maximum articulation, once this happens then the rear tyre will lift off the ground and if the angle is extreme enough the vehicle will tip over.

What dislocation cones allow is for the axle to articulate further meaning the body can lean over more before it will pick the rear wheel off the ground, however when the maximum travel is exceeded exactly the same thing will occur as with a retained spring, the wheel will lift off the ground.

Originally Posted by Hank

Are you starting to actually think, yet?

Yep, I’m starting to think you’re a total arse hole, :jest:

Originally Posted by Hank

I dought you are...

Gonna guess you meant doubt??

Originally Posted by Hank

The front spring that drops into the whole will then work to "support" the vehicle. It that, alone, going to stop the Inertia? No.

Depends it may or may not, see above.

But once more you seem to be totally miss understanding what the spring does.

Suspension springs in this instance are not used to stretch as a spring in a catapult might. Sure some can stretch but they are generally soft springs and certainly would not be able to stop a vehicle from tipping over but are there to allow extra travel and remain retained. But that is NOT what you have been saying.

This would be so easy to explain with props. Have you ever had a RC buggy/truck like a Losi or something???

The suspension is IRS but the shock works in the same manner as any shock, it limits the travel and the spring (like the rock crawler you posted earlier) only retains the springs by keeping them under compression all the time, even when FULLY extended.

To put it simply, and I hope fairly politely – you seem to be totally confused about what a spring is used for in a Land Rover suspension system.

Originally Posted by Hank

There has to be more resistance there. What is going to stop the kinetic energy stored in the body roll? Well, is has to come from the opposite corner, or the corner raising up. If you have a cone, you are not utilizing the weight of the wheel, axle, or the leverage of the planted wheel on the same axle to stop the movement. Instead, the body continues to roll uncontrollably, as much as 14-18", until the shock grabs the axle.

Again still under the wrong impression of what a spring does, and NO the body does not continue to roll uncontrollably.

I mean come on you can’t, you really can’t be this stupid. According to your words if the body starts to lean with cones then it will continue until it topples, but once again HOW the SMEG do people actually use such setups, if according to YOU they are so unstable. I mean they would be lucky to make it over a parking curb let alone a trail or trial.

The simple fact that people DO indeed use such setups and DO NOT have the problems you describe shows your whole reasoning to be flawed and inaccurate.

Originally Posted by Hank

At this point, your wheel is just hanging there. It's doing noting but sitting there. It provides VERY minimal traction (if you have not rolled)

See once again you seem convinced that they will roll at the first incline, but they DON’T 1000’s of people over here run these setups and DO NOT roll over.

Originally Posted by Hank

and once the truck is moving forward again, until that spring re-seats, optimum traction will not be gained by the opposite corner wheel.

Under full articulation a retain spring at full stretch/relaxed state will be offer no extra downwards force.

This again goes back to the fundamentals of how a LIVE AXLE setup works. It is primarily this that provides the downward force and thus the traction, but it is this same process whether it has cones or retained springs!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Hank

So, I think it can be agreed that a truck with cones has more body roll, right?

NO!

It simply allows more articulation for the length of spring being used. If that same spring was retained you would loose ‘x’ inches of articulation.

Originally Posted by Hank

Transversing a sideways terrian.... If it takes ~220lbs+ of force to stretch a spring,

See it’s NOT about stretching springs it’s about compressing. This is where you whole argument falls apart.

Damn I really wish I could explain this verbally with the aid of props, it would be so much easier.

Right imagine a coil spring, like this:


Ok see that in there natuarally relaxed state the coils are quite far apart.

When fitted to a vehicle the will compress and become shorter. And if the wheel is moved up the coils will bind closer together.

Under articulation on the wheel moving down the spring will decompress, note decompress not stretch.

Here is a NON-retained, NON-dislocation cone spring under articulation:


See how it has almost returned to it’s natural fully relaxed state as in the above picture. At this point in time the spring is just balanced between the spring seats and is affectively doing nothing. If the wheel continued to move down then the spring would simply fall out, hence dislocation cones prevent it falling to the side and also re-seat it again upon compression. But what they have allowed is EXACTLY the same control as the spring fully relaxed but increased the amount of flex.

Now it is very rare that you will see a spring being stretched. Sure if you retained the spring at the top and bottom but added a longer shock to continue the movement downwards then given enough force it would stretch the spring. But a stiff spring would require an enormous amount of force to stretch it and this would be beyond the rating of the spring seats in most cases. Hence under ARC regs strings may only be retained with plastic cable ties, so if the stress gets too much the cable tie will break.

The cable tie is put thru the top coil and the upper spring seat.

Of course longer softer springs will stretch easier but in this instance all they are doing is keeping the seat in contact with the spring seats. The spring will be too soft to have any affect or control over the body.

Here is a nice example:


Here you can see the spring is FULL relaxed, it is not being compressed or under tension but is being retained by the upper spring seat. This is the way most stock suspension setups work. And the shock is dictating the amount of travel. In this state the sping is doing nothing other than sitting there. It’s not pushing up or down.

By adding a longer shock the wheel can move further down, thus increasing articulation. The shock is STILL limiting the travel, but as the spring was full relaxed it CAN NOT extend any further. Hence it has now become unseated.

NOTE: The spring is the same length when dislocated as when the old shock limited to shorter travel, this PROVES the spring is not limiting the travel in any way shape or form.



Now the addition of a long dislocation cone on the top seat would allow the spring to re-seat itself if it became dislocated while in use. Although with that much dislocation a longer spring and cones would probably work better.

IF the owner had retained the stock spring to the spring seats it would have tried to stretch the spring under articulation, which is bad for the spring and would apply immense forces on the spring seats. A VERY BAD IDEA.

However they came up with a different idea, it basically involved running what is essentially a longer dual stage spring so that it could still articulate as far but remain seated at all times.





NOW!

When a spring is retained in many of the setups being talked about here, what happens is the spring is either softer or dual stage. This means it will compress further when on the vehicle.

HOWEVER the important point to note is that under articulation it will not stretch but merely extend to its fully relaxed state. Maybe on an extreme setup it will stretch a little if it is physically retained but not in the manner you are implying.

Originally Posted by Hank

You idiots who run a cone set up do so because you think flexy is sexy.

Again with the insults, keep on like that and you’ll probably be banned.

BTW – I don’t run dislocations cones, but a retained setup!

Originally Posted by Hank

There is no other reason to do so. If you would direct your money from the mile long shocks and the cones, and put it toward a locker, you may actually have something to talk about.

Ignorance is bliss isn’t it?

Originally Posted by Hank

I don't care where you go, anyone competing in pro level competitions will never be running a cone or revolver style set-up.

But they DO!

It’s not a debate it’s FACT.

Originally Posted by Hank

It's stupid,

Only for those who don’t understand and want to bash based on unfounded personal bias.

Originally Posted by Hank

and it does nothing to make your truck any better than it already was.

I think this has been covered already.

Originally Posted by Hank

Now, I agree that it is best to keep your wheel planted on the ground, but if it's just hanging there in mid air, all it's doing is fucking you up.

Seriously go LEARN about how they work then come back to me.

I’ve done my best to explain the limited knowledge I have but there is far more out there. But without talking insult just accept that your views on how the suspension works are not entirely accurate.

Seriously you will learn something.