Gray Market Defender

[Judge Smails]

I have a question about insurance liablity on Gray market Defenders in the US:

Obviously, with a "creatively titled" Defender, ie a 1998 300TDI titled as a 1978, you are in big touble if you are liable in a major accident. But what about Defenders that are titled as the actual year of the vehichle? For example: There is a 2002 110 TD5 for sale in California that is titled and registered as a 2002. How they did that I have no idea. I have also seen (and test driven) a 96 110 300TDI that was also titled and registered as a 96.

So, would an insurance company stand behind you in a major accident for these vehicles?

[TerryS]

There's a huge difference between legitimate grey market vehicles, legally imported prior to the 25 year rule (grey market rules, which were superceded by the 25 year rule, around 1992, required a vehicle be 5 years old, minimum) and vehicles imported using Vehicle ID's from another vehicle.
In the event of an accident, or other claim, where you, and your insurance company are deemed liable, if the vehicle proves to have a transplanted VIN, not only with they disclaim liability, you will be fully exposed to civil liability (including the potential for seizure).
Most every insurance company will insure a vehicle imported under grey rules, or under rules currently in place provided the vehicle has entered the country legally.

[astateofmike]

Well, in CA at my work (a major insurance company) we will insure a "grey market" vehicle, as long as we have the CA DOT and current CA registration showing compliance with state safey laws, etc....I have to get the rating from our insurance product operations, as each vehicle is a bit different, and it may cost more than you would want becuase the likelyhood of recovery of a theft vehicle and /or the availability or cost of parts is higher since they would have to be located and brought into the area.....

BUT, we can insure them. Registered as the correct year make and model..

Now that is my company and may vary per insurer. It also is for our "good driver" product as our less than good driver product has a whole different set of rules....

But we are all good drivers, right?

[Judge Smails]

The two vehicles I mentioned above appear to have been legally imported. I have seen both CA titles. On the 96, the owner was protective when I asked how he managed to import, title and register it, but he said it took him a year and a half and really the only modification he had to make was changed the speedo from KPH to MPH. The 02 has had no aterations as it was a new factory LHD in MPH already. What I am confused is that neither one had the interior/exterior roll cages nor airbags.

[astateofmike]

Well, the question about the airbags/roll cages are really do you care? If the car is titled, registered etc in CA, then you should be able to get insurance. Since most carriers VIN edit vehicles for rating purposes, the VIN will not proabably populate in the computer (this is how I generally find out) so we manually rate it but contacting our main office underwriting. But like I said, although usually a bit pricey due to what can only be described as "rarity", but if CA DOT and DMV say titled and registered for on road use, then who cares what they did to get it here, you will just reap the benefits of finding them at the right time.

I am new here, so the PM thing is new to me, but if you want an estimate of what it will cost to insure (rough only) PM me the description and I'll just run a quote for myself (if you are not in NorCal) or send your zip too if you are in NorCal and I'll see what my underwriters say....then at least you have a base to think about and all.....

Hope some of that helps....

[Muddy Oval]

Many people will use a fraudulent VIN from the same year, but different vehicle. Lots of Range Rovers on paper are really illegal Defenders etc. Just because they have paperwork and insurance still won't make them legal. There's a whole layer of Federal laws that come into play. Anyone who hesitates to explain how their vehicle came into the country is someone to avoid like the plague. If someone has the chance to sue you at some point, they won't sue for just a few bucks-

[Hank]

Doesn't the title belong to the frame? What does it matter what body it has on it? It would not be a legit 110, but some people really do not care.

[astateofmike]

If an insurance company accepts premium for the policy with the car and you have provided them with all the available information about the car in good faith, they better stand behind you.

Otherwise a Dept of Insurance Bad faith suit would present itself and that is not a good deal. If you are open and honest with yuor agent about the car, and they choose to insure it, they better as heck stand behind you!

[Judge Smails]

The 02 TD5 for sale in California is very interesting: I remember the guy who brought it in back in 02, he sold it to a guy in Nebraska who sold it to a guy in Colorado who sold it to the current owner in California. It has a total of 7200 miles on it, the current owner putting only 1000 miles on it since it was bought off Ebay in December 04. Oh yeah....he is asking $70k...No one seems to want to keep it.

[astateofmike]

Worth 70k and no one stay with it........Well, I would be more than a bit concerned......

[TerryS]

IF (That's a big IF) it came in legally, the current owner should be able to, and willing to, produce the EPA & DOT signoff paperwork from the Registered Importer who did the import and qualification work. If he can't, or won't produce the paperwork, walk away.

[globallandrovers]

The general feeling I get is if you want a Defender get a 1993 model year stationwagon and federalise it! We are in the process of becoming an RI. And are currently working with one on the west coast. We can do federalised Tourbo diesel Defenders from $40,000.
In the past i have sent some Kit vehicles in, but we stopped doing that in 2003.

[Judge Smails]

Julian, I have a question: How many 110s have you brought in and Federalized so far? The one on your website for $50k...is that the net price after all the work & paperwork?

[Judge Smails]

Now the guy has put it up for sale on Ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2003-...QQcmdZViewItem

[Judge Smails]

Are there is another grey market 110 on Ebay too: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Land-...QQcmdZViewItem
This one is a 2000 titled as a 72, owner claims it was a 72 that was rebuilt using 2000 110 TDI parts, like anyone would believe that.