Been awhile since we had a good rant thread on here, and I know there's no shortage of strong opinions.
So.... for best real-world performance, should springs be retained? Or are cones the way to go? I know cones look cool in the mags & on the ramp, but do they really outperform flexy, retained springs on the trail? Seems those funny yet endearing English like the cone action. But I don't see too many in actual use 'round here. Could it be... that cones are for the glossy shots and retainers are for those who actually get body damage? Or are retainer-heads missing the boat & cones are where it's at? Are cones rollover city? Or do retained springs limit your flex appeal ?
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RETAINED all the way, a tire with no weight has no traction anyway, thats what lockers are for. Drop outs can really throw the vehicle back the other direction when weight shifts, I vote for retained being simpler, effective and safer.
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Safari Gard has a cool reverse spring that lets the main spring unseat but in a controlled way by compressing the SG spring.
Never tried them though.
My springs are retained but I have 3-4 turns on my springs that touch 'dead springs' that will stretch when the wheel drops far enough. giving a bit of both worlds.
I hear it's a freaky feeling when the spring unseats and drops along the cones..
I dont know too much about the logistics of cones vs. retained springs, but I know a guy who has coned out his rig and its pretty amazing what it can do...so speaking from what I've seen personally I would have to say cones
i havn't seen retainers in action but i have seen cones work very well. i think if you want a very flexy rig with cones you should invest in longer bumpstops.
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1989 Mercedes 190D
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Retained springs all the way.
Cones loses their tensile strength over the same relative time period. Cones are more susceptible to damage and degradation from oil and derivatives. Lets face it, cones are more of a fixed or inert suspension component.
The same natural forces acts on both, however, their individual response differs due to their dynamicity (or lack of). These two components are designed for similar, but not identical purpose..... a retained spring simply allows for a greater natural response under varying conditions...in our case off-roading...........
I will probably hear "stuff" about this......
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2001 Disco SE7
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Kevin...I was too fast for you..... ... I saw your post.....
I stand corrected. I was thinking more along the lines of the old Minis with the cones.......dont know how we could make a Rover accomodate that ....but hey we are adventurous....
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2001 Disco SE7
.......eventually they will run out of suicide bombers.....
I agree with Kevin. Another thing with a cone setup is the noise factor. You really have to get used to the noise of the springs seating and unseating.
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Abraham
2000 Discovery II SD
1993 Range Rover County LWB
I run, play, fix and live Rovers because I choose to.
Well.... I am going to give the cones a try!!! I wheel with a lot of people that have them and they work really well!!!!! I will deciede later.... There are many cons that make sense but there are also enough pros for me to give it a try!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
Colorado's own 'jacked up little kid' is Funrover. And he's usualy in the springs.
The springs are not actually retained. The shock or other device limits the travel of the axle so that the springs remain seated. If you want your rig to look cool when going over rocks or ruts, go for the cones. However, they have not real positive effect on your ability to get anywhere. They tend to be used by people who have spring lifts using stiff springs and therefore have little spring movement. So the question should be more whether you go for long soft springs that allow the spting to remain in place or whether you go for stiff springs that require cones to get any movement. The weight of the wheel is the only thing providing some traction on a dislocated spring. Therefore the traction is virtually non-existant and not worth the effort.
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My springs are actually retained, as are a few of my friend's rigs springs. There is a rectangular section of steel bolted to the spring seat very positively retaing all of my springs. The shocks never max out, as they can be damaged by slamming to maximum to often.
If fact the rear springs are retained with the dislocation cone still in place offering some stability for the steel bar. With the removal of two bolts I could choose to use the cones if the whim struck.
The key to my suspension are the dead coils that stretch, but have no space between when weight is on the wheel.
Retaining is a huge deal, especially if an axle over articulates and unseats the unretained spring. It may not seat again without a cone to guide it back in. The best example I've seen a lot is a D90 down Wipe out hill in Moab. There is a dip at the bottom the front left falls in and the right rear can be in the air by a foot or more. There is always that uneasy sound of the spring catching the lip of the spring seat as the spring has weight applied to it again. They can get stuck in a bad position and it's a lot of work to re-seat them. So in a long travel set up, you have to choose to avoid this situation.
I agree with Kevin. Another thing with a cone setup is the noise factor. You really have to get used to the noise of the springs seating and unseating.
That was one big thing I noticed it sounded like the wheel broke off when it dropped lol...I would definitely freak out every time I heard that
The springs are not actually retained. The shock or other device limits the travel of the axle so that the springs remain seated. If you want your rig to look cool when going over rocks or ruts, go for the cones. However, they have not real positive effect on your ability to get anywhere. They tend to be used by people who have spring lifts using stiff springs and therefore have little spring movement. So the question should be more whether you go for long soft springs that allow the spting to remain in place or whether you go for stiff springs that require cones to get any movement. The weight of the wheel is the only thing providing some traction on a dislocated spring. Therefore the traction is virtually non-existant and not worth the effort.
I think I’d have to disagree with this.
Dislocation cones are very popular here in the UK and put too good effect and in many/most cases are used on vehicles running stock ride height.
Basically what it solves is an inherent problem as the wheel moves down and the shock spring extend there comes a point where the spring will fall out of it’s retainer. On a stock vehicle this is rare but it does happen and more often than officials would like.
For ARC competition events it is prohibited to run dislocation cones, so the only safe alternative is to securer the spring to the top retainer. The accepted method is to simply cable tie it as the cable tie will break before ripping the retainer from the vehicle. But this means that firstly suspension travel is now limited and you run the risk of unseating the spring at the base.
I have seen an Ibex (based on a Land Rover chassis/platform) running a special dual spring. Essentially it was fixed at the top and as the hub moved down the spring would extend, at the bottom of the spring was another soft spring which would only extend at full articulation, this kept the spring in contact with the seat at all times.
I can also see why Wranglers don’t use dislocation cones, but this is because of where and how the spring/shock is mounted. Although I can see a potential benefit on some setups of running dislocation cones.
And I also disagree with your logic about the weight of the wheel being the only thing providing traction on a dislocated wheel.
Firstly because you have the whole hub assy there as well.
Secondly if the spring was still in contact (and being a soft spring as you recommend above) it really won’t be asserting much force when its almost fully relaxed. So the force pushing down will be almost identical.
Thirdly, a Land Rover uses live axles and not IRS. So any movement on one hub is reflected as an opposite on the other. Meaning that as one wheel is pushed UP it forces the other DOWN.
Take a pen and hold it between your finger than thumb and push one side up, the other will have a lot of force but in a downwards direction. This is the main reason why live rear axles are used over IRS for off roaders.
Plus as the axle is a live axle it will not drop unless the other side is being compressed. So there will always be plenty of force being applied to the dropped hub/wheel.
Some one else mentioned there’s a lack of control with dislocation cones, well as long as the vehicle is properly damped I don’t see an issue. The shock should be controlling the travel and be providing the damping. The spring exists for ride height and bounce/jounce control.
Longer break lines and new bump stops are a must when using dislocation cones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by p76rangie
Thor, how are your springs retained at the top. From the factory there are only retainers on the bottom of the spring.
Ian
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300hp, first off, if you still have the load leveler in, the upward movement on one side of the axle will place some force down on the other. But many people have either removed their load levelers or they are not working. Mine on the other hand is fully operational. Without the load leveler there is no counter lever to force the other axle down.
If you want to cover softer springs verses stiffer springs. The stiffness of the springs is measure in pounds per inch. That is how many pounds pressure it takes to compress the springs one inch. As a rough figure there is about 900 lbs pressure on each corner of a classic Rangie. Therefore a 150lb spring will be compressed 6 inches. A 300 lb spring would only be compressed 3 inches. So with a 300 lb spring, when the weight of the vehicle has fully transferred to one side of the vehicle there will be 6 inches of articulation between the two wheels. With such articulation with the 150 lb springs there is still 450 lb of weight on the lower wheel. This weight will offer good traction and stability for the vehicle.
It is the weight transfer between wheels that causes the springs to compress and expand. Could not be any other way. Therefore independant suspension will act in a similar way to a beam axle in most circumstances. The disadvantages of independent suspension is that their movement is limited and that the centre of the vehicle will come closer to the ground on compression of the suspension. This along with low suspension arms can severly limit your ground clearance. This is a bit of a generalisation though as vehicles like the Pinny has independant suspension and excellent ground clearance.
Side-note on retainers: Those rectangular retainers in popular use can bend under hard usage. I have seen this several times at inopportune moments on the trail, on my rig & on friend's. I would strongly recommend an aftermarket pancake-style upper retainer.
Ian - I'm not sure what you mean by springs being unretained out of the factory?
Springs: retention or cones?
... I saw your post.....
