Springs: retention or cones?

[Thor]

retained and locked on demand!

Soft dual stage springs with 3 dead coils matched to my 12" Bilstein 7100 nitrogen charged shocks set a 170 psi.

On the oil change lift last week my wheels did not leave the ground until the lift had raised the frame nearly 11 inches. Did not measure exactly but it's a reasonable estimate.

[Jupiter Rover]

good thread. i learned alot. but i did take physics. and see where hank is comming from. he makes Alot of sense, if you actually understand the "physical" concept. im retained all the way for the better traction(i live down south, no stretching) but for articulation and looks, go cones. I Guess.

[Greg S]

Originally Posted by cellulararrest

After reading this I still think that the lower the weight of a vehicle is, the lower it's center of gravity. Because of that I'm in support of dislocation cones. They allow the wheels and the rest of a vehicle's unsprung weight to be closer to the ground therefore lowering it's center of gravity.
...right?

My thoughts exactly. I appreciate the knowledge shared by 300. I am also offended by the mud slinging and name calling by some of the people in this thread. Pity it went there.

I have a leaf sprung Landy and wouldn't mind trying revolver shackles, as I expect they will increase the suspension drop like the cone will. The cone allows a decrease in center of gravity so less tendency to roll when you have ONE corner raised or lowered. But what about on a side hill where both wheels on one side are unloaded due to the angle of the side slope?

One point missed and TOTALLY ignored by one detractor (possibly purposely steared away from?) is that with the cone system, when one wheel goes into maximum compression and the opposite spring unloads, the wheel on the unloaded side is being pressed down into the ground. How? The compressed wheel is using the compressed spring as a fulcrum. Admittedly it is a shorter lever arm between the compressed wheel and spring than it is between the uncompressed wheel and the "fulcrum" but there is substantial force exerted on the wheel of the unloaded side till the shock is fully extended. This is possibly why it is such a popular modification in open diff applications because it spreads the total load to some extent across both wheels rather than concentrating it on one.

As previously said (or alluded to), spring retainers work best combined with a locker because with a locker, you simply don't require both tires to be firmly planted to keep the wheels turning.

[p76rangie]

greg, you might explain how cones lower the centre of gravity. It is also about whether that wheel is offering any stability to the vehicle. The leverage effect of the compressed wheel was discussed earlier. It provides minimal downward pressure on the other wheel, not significant as you suggest.

[cellulararrest]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

The leverage effect of the compressed wheel was discussed earlier. It provides minimal downward pressure on the other wheel, not significant as you suggest.

Yeah by pure speculation. I still don't buy it.

[p76rangie]

If you go do your measurements, the leverage affect is around 7 to 1. Therefore, for every 7 Lbs pushing up on the high wheel, it will put 1 lb of downward pressure on the low wheel. But then you get into difficulties in working out the upward pressure as the tyre goes on an angle as the wheel articulates. Therefore the weight moves to a sideward pressure rather than an up and down pressure on the axle. So it reduces the downward pressure on the other wheel.

It is not that cones do not offer any benefits, it is a matter of whether other changes will give better benefits. Many of the vehicles pictured in this thread have gone for short stiff springs. You can tell this by the very little movement in the front suspension and the high side on the back. As these stiff springs do do compress as much under load (2 or 3 inches less in the case of a 2 or 3 inch lift) the wheel does not travel very far down before there is no weight on the spring. So unless you put cones on you end up with less travel than standard springs.

So all I suggest is get your spring rates and length right first before going to cones. It will make the vehicle perform a hell of a lot better. But if you already have a good set-up and add cones, there are advantages with some increase traction and disadvantages of less stability. In the photos in this thread The following vehicles appear to have reasonable suspension set-ups and cones.
1) Red 90 on page 3
2) the dark blue (or is it black) 90 hard top on page 6 (2 photos)
3) Red 90 (registration TOP 90) on page 6
4) The green 90 competition ute with the rear winch on page 6
5) The blue 90 hardtop on page 6 (2 photos)

[p76rangie]

Just a final point with the leverage effect. Is it the wheel going up on the high side putting leverage force on the low wheel or the other way around. A 100 lb wheel and diff housing dropping can put 700lb of force on the high wheel, forcing it up. In such a case there is no leverage on the low wheel to help with traction, as it is doing levering.