Springs: retention or cones?

[Funrover]

Well.... I am going to give the cones a try!!! I wheel with a lot of people that have them and they work really well!!!!! I will deciede later.... There are many cons that make sense but there are also enough pros for me to give it a try!

[p76rangie]

The springs are not actually retained. The shock or other device limits the travel of the axle so that the springs remain seated. If you want your rig to look cool when going over rocks or ruts, go for the cones. However, they have not real positive effect on your ability to get anywhere. They tend to be used by people who have spring lifts using stiff springs and therefore have little spring movement. So the question should be more whether you go for long soft springs that allow the spting to remain in place or whether you go for stiff springs that require cones to get any movement. The weight of the wheel is the only thing providing some traction on a dislocated spring. Therefore the traction is virtually non-existant and not worth the effort.

[Thor]

My springs are actually retained, as are a few of my friend's rigs springs. There is a rectangular section of steel bolted to the spring seat very positively retaing all of my springs. The shocks never max out, as they can be damaged by slamming to maximum to often.

If fact the rear springs are retained with the dislocation cone still in place offering some stability for the steel bar. With the removal of two bolts I could choose to use the cones if the whim struck.

The key to my suspension are the dead coils that stretch, but have no space between when weight is on the wheel.

Retaining is a huge deal, especially if an axle over articulates and unseats the unretained spring. It may not seat again without a cone to guide it back in. The best example I've seen a lot is a D90 down Wipe out hill in Moab. There is a dip at the bottom the front left falls in and the right rear can be in the air by a foot or more. There is always that uneasy sound of the spring catching the lip of the spring seat as the spring has weight applied to it again. They can get stuck in a bad position and it's a lot of work to re-seat them. So in a long travel set up, you have to choose to avoid this situation.

[SkeeZRoverXD]

Originally Posted by roverthen

I agree with Kevin. Another thing with a cone setup is the noise factor. You really have to get used to the noise of the springs seating and unseating.

That was one big thing I noticed it sounded like the wheel broke off when it dropped lol...I would definitely freak out every time I heard that

[p76rangie]

Thor, how are your springs retained at the top. From the factory there are only retainers on the bottom of the spring.

Ian

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

The springs are not actually retained. The shock or other device limits the travel of the axle so that the springs remain seated. If you want your rig to look cool when going over rocks or ruts, go for the cones. However, they have not real positive effect on your ability to get anywhere. They tend to be used by people who have spring lifts using stiff springs and therefore have little spring movement. So the question should be more whether you go for long soft springs that allow the spting to remain in place or whether you go for stiff springs that require cones to get any movement. The weight of the wheel is the only thing providing some traction on a dislocated spring. Therefore the traction is virtually non-existant and not worth the effort.

I think I’d have to disagree with this.

Dislocation cones are very popular here in the UK and put too good effect and in many/most cases are used on vehicles running stock ride height.

Basically what it solves is an inherent problem as the wheel moves down and the shock spring extend there comes a point where the spring will fall out of it’s retainer. On a stock vehicle this is rare but it does happen and more often than officials would like.

For ARC competition events it is prohibited to run dislocation cones, so the only safe alternative is to securer the spring to the top retainer. The accepted method is to simply cable tie it as the cable tie will break before ripping the retainer from the vehicle. But this means that firstly suspension travel is now limited and you run the risk of unseating the spring at the base.

I have seen an Ibex (based on a Land Rover chassis/platform) running a special dual spring. Essentially it was fixed at the top and as the hub moved down the spring would extend, at the bottom of the spring was another soft spring which would only extend at full articulation, this kept the spring in contact with the seat at all times.

I can also see why Wranglers don’t use dislocation cones, but this is because of where and how the spring/shock is mounted. Although I can see a potential benefit on some setups of running dislocation cones.

And I also disagree with your logic about the weight of the wheel being the only thing providing traction on a dislocated wheel.

Firstly because you have the whole hub assy there as well.

Secondly if the spring was still in contact (and being a soft spring as you recommend above) it really won’t be asserting much force when its almost fully relaxed. So the force pushing down will be almost identical.

Thirdly, a Land Rover uses live axles and not IRS. So any movement on one hub is reflected as an opposite on the other. Meaning that as one wheel is pushed UP it forces the other DOWN.

Take a pen and hold it between your finger than thumb and push one side up, the other will have a lot of force but in a downwards direction. This is the main reason why live rear axles are used over IRS for off roaders.

Plus as the axle is a live axle it will not drop unless the other side is being compressed. So there will always be plenty of force being applied to the dropped hub/wheel.

Some one else mentioned there’s a lack of control with dislocation cones, well as long as the vehicle is properly damped I don’t see an issue. The shock should be controlling the travel and be providing the damping. The spring exists for ride height and bounce/jounce control.

Longer break lines and new bump stops are a must when using dislocation cones.

Originally Posted by p76rangie

Thor, how are your springs retained at the top. From the factory there are only retainers on the bottom of the spring.

Ian

[p76rangie]

300hp, first off, if you still have the load leveler in, the upward movement on one side of the axle will place some force down on the other. But many people have either removed their load levelers or they are not working. Mine on the other hand is fully operational. Without the load leveler there is no counter lever to force the other axle down.

If you want to cover softer springs verses stiffer springs. The stiffness of the springs is measure in pounds per inch. That is how many pounds pressure it takes to compress the springs one inch. As a rough figure there is about 900 lbs pressure on each corner of a classic Rangie. Therefore a 150lb spring will be compressed 6 inches. A 300 lb spring would only be compressed 3 inches. So with a 300 lb spring, when the weight of the vehicle has fully transferred to one side of the vehicle there will be 6 inches of articulation between the two wheels. With such articulation with the 150 lb springs there is still 450 lb of weight on the lower wheel. This weight will offer good traction and stability for the vehicle.

It is the weight transfer between wheels that causes the springs to compress and expand. Could not be any other way. Therefore independant suspension will act in a similar way to a beam axle in most circumstances. The disadvantages of independent suspension is that their movement is limited and that the centre of the vehicle will come closer to the ground on compression of the suspension. This along with low suspension arms can severly limit your ground clearance. This is a bit of a generalisation though as vehicles like the Pinny has independant suspension and excellent ground clearance.

[SCSL]

Side-note on retainers: Those rectangular retainers in popular use can bend under hard usage. I have seen this several times at inopportune moments on the trail, on my rig & on friend's. I would strongly recommend an aftermarket pancake-style upper retainer.

Ian - I'm not sure what you mean by springs being unretained out of the factory?

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

300hp, first off, if you still have the load leveler in, the upward movement on one side of the axle will place some force down on the other. But many people have either removed their load levelers or they are not working.

I'm not entirely certain what a load leveler is? Maybe it's just a communication thing and I know it my another name. Any chance you could expand on it opr post a pic of it?

Originally Posted by p76rangie

If you want to cover softer springs verses stiffer springs. The stiffness of the springs is measure in pounds per inch. That is how many pounds pressure it takes to compress the springs one inch. As a rough figure there is about 900 lbs pressure on each corner of a classic Rangie. Therefore a 150lb spring will be compressed 6 inches. A 300 lb spring would only be compressed 3 inches. So with a 300 lb spring, when the weight of the vehicle has fully transferred to one side of the vehicle there will be 6 inches of articulation between the two wheels. With such articulation with the 150 lb springs there is still 450 lb of weight on the lower wheel. This weight will offer good traction and stability for the vehicle.

It is the weight transfer between wheels that causes the springs to compress and expand. Could not be any other way. Therefore independant suspension will act in a similar way to a beam axle in most circumstances. The disadvantages of independent suspension is that their movement is limited and that the centre of the vehicle will come closer to the ground on compression of the suspension. This along with low suspension arms can severly limit your ground clearance. This is a bit of a generalisation though as vehicles like the Pinny has independant suspension and excellent ground clearance.

I'm not really certain what all the above means??? Maybe I'm just reading it wrong but I don't see how it affects the amount of force a fully relaxed srping makes when at full articulation.

[300bhp/ton]

p76rangie -

Unless I missunderstood you (sorry if I did). But I surmised that you where saying using dislocation cones (or dislocating springs) the downward articulated wheel only has the weight of the wheel pushing it down.

So in that case in this picture the rear right wheel only has the weight of the wheel pushing down onto the ground. So in theroy you would be happy to have your bear foot under the wheel knowing that there is by comparison very little force being excerted?



I guess it would be good to be able to add a scale of some sort to measure it, but I'm quite willing to bet the force being excerted is far greater than just the mass of the wheel.

[Duncan]

In my case I had no problems until I made up some lowering mounts for my Rear shocks and as can be seen from the picture when I tested the Flex I dislocated the Spring.I decided to make some Dislocation cones and ( second picture) and mounted them on the bottom and fastened the upper spring to the perch. Now on the odd occasion they disconnect ,the spring slides relatively smoothly back onto its seat.

Do I prefer this to having the Springs retained top and Bottom.

I honestly have not decided yet. Still playing around with it but making the rear cones was a somewhat simple task and it does,nt involve to much time or $$$. But I can say that the dislocated wheel does still have traction from my limited experience with it. ( Please i know the welds are atrocious I was in a bit of a rush to see how the cones would work)

[p76rangie]

300bhp, The load leveler on a classic rangie is a large shock absorber looking device mounted within the "A" frame of the rear suspension. It is designed to maintain the rear height of the vehicle. If the back sags it pumps it back to normal road height. It takes a large portion of the rear weight of the vehicle and therefore the vehicle came with softer springs. It also acts as a pivot point for the suspension. It is also referred to as a BOGE unit.

Yes, I could put my foot under the rear wheel of that Orange disco. The photo actually shows up one of the faults with cones. Due to the 3 point suspension in the rear, you can get more movement than the front. So the front starts driving the angle that the car will sit. In the case of the photo the car is leaning to the left. If the owner had not put as stiff as springs in it, the front right wheel would be tucking in a lot further, the car would be flater, the back right wheel would not be dislocated, and you would most likely have traction to the back right.

[p76rangie]

Duncan, why did you lower your shock mount. It is usual to raise the mount to fit longer shocks and increase overall movement. If you look at all the other photos posted on this thread, the shock mounts have been raised and moved slightly forward.

Ian

[p76rangie]

SCSL, as most of the photos show, the spring is only held at the bottom. This is how they come from the factory. If the wheel drops too far the spring will come out from the top. Without cones the spring will most likely not go back in properly. The axle movement is limited by the shocks to stop the springs coming out of the top bracket. It is only when you move shock mounts or fit longer shocks that the springs will dislocate

[SCSL]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

SCSL, as most of the photos show, the spring is only held at the bottom. This is how they come from the factory. If the wheel drops too far the spring will come out from the top. Without cones the spring will most likely not go back in properly. The axle movement is limited by the shocks to stop the springs coming out of the top bracket. It is only when you move shock mounts or fit longer shocks that the springs will dislocate

Hmmm. I was not aware of this. Strange design from the factory. What's to stop the stock shock from bottoming out? I suppose the stock bumpstops prevent this from happening?

Learn something new about Rovers every day.... it's been years since I've been underneath a stock anything...