Springs: retention or cones?

[SCSL]

Hmmm. There's only one way to solve this. I should be sponsored to wheel events in the UK so we can do a straight-up comparison

[Hank]

Easy test.
In an unlocked rear end (or front end), lock the center diff and drive up an RTI ramp. Mark where you loos traction, then try it with a truck with the same spring only with cones. This will solve the cove vs retainers debate on traction.

Another debate is the stability.

Cones sucks.

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by Hank

Another debate is the stability.

Cones sucks.

How????

One of the main aims of running dislocation cones is to allow more wheels on the ground during articulation, and thusly more stability.

e.g.

Which looks more stable:

Stock/srpings retained:


Dislocated springs:


Again 4 wheels on the ground due to dislocation cones.


Even at extreme angles 4 wheels still on the ground.

[sevenrover]

I have had cones for three years, I haven't had any scary things happen. Whether on the freeway, or down south in moab. but I am going to switch to the SG droop kit. It gives me 3 extra inches of travel, but still has the characteristics of a retained spring. My verdict? it depends on the driver's preferences.

[Hank]

300, in your above picture, that really show nothing. If the body is just "floating" how is it more stable? Although that wheel is on the ground, it is not doing anything; it's just sitting there. It's not holding the truck down and it's not providing traction.

Take that same pic, and elevate the front wheel thats in the hold - a common off camber trail. When the truck starts to lean, and the body is "floating" it is much more unstable. Same with coming down a steep off-camber hill.

I think you are the one who was talking about keeping a low center of gravity. Why would you compermise that with a body that rolls into the turn? You're making the truch a lot more "tippy" than what it needs to be.

If the truck was retained, the axle works as a sway bar; traction is placed to the wheel in the low side, and the upperside holds the truck down.

Beside that, your above picture is of two complety different set-ups. One truch has a much larger tire and a taller lift. I can't really tell, but it looks like the control arms are different, too. All that does play a roll in the way a truck sits.

[fivespddisco]

Originally Posted by Hank

Beside that, your above picture is of two complety different set-ups. One truch has a much larger tire and a taller lift. I can't really tell, but it looks like the control arms are different, too. All that does play a roll in the way a truck sits.

well you said it. you need to compare 1 set up to another set up.

[fivespddisco]

76 where did you go?

[adamsclarke]

Alright....post numero uno....
I have run both cones and retained (currently) While I did enjoy the flex of the cones....I like the controled predictablilty of being retained. I have never been in a situation where the extra articulation from cones would have kept me from being on my side or stuck (and I've been stuck plenty)

You can look at it like this....look a simple leaf spring and revolver type of shackle.....the amount of unloading that occurs could happen at the wrong moment...the sam eis true with cones....if your spring is just hanging there with no weight....one wrong move can unload the truck and end up on its side...where with being retained (from my driving) I can tell when i am going over.

[fivespddisco]

Originally Posted by adamsclarke

Alright....post numero uno....
I have run both cones and retained (currently) While I did enjoy the flex of the cones....I like the controled predictablilty of being retained. I have never been in a situation where the extra articulation from cones would have kept me from being on my side or stuck (and I've been stuck plenty)

You can look at it like this....look a simple leaf spring and revolver type of shackle.....the amount of unloading that occurs could happen at the wrong moment...the sam eis true with cones....if your spring is just hanging there with no weight....one wrong move can unload the truck and end up on its side...where with being retained (from my driving) I can tell when i am going over.

welcome aboard what kind of shocks where you using ?

this is part 2 of cones, control. part 1 is the traction debate.


cheers

[nfrey2]

Say in a crossed up position, the one that shows maximum flex, your rig begins to tip front left. You feel the momentum building and begin to contemplate going with an SCSL role cage. If your spring is retained, that back right tire is already in the air and its mass is building momentum as well. If your running cones that tire is sitting on the ground, maybe with minimal weight, but as your tipping and that shock tops out the mass of that tire plays an important role in stopping the tipping momentum of your rig. Cones keep your weight lower to the ground and we know how important that is! In extreme situations that right rear isnt going to have great traction regardless, thats what lockers are for, so there is no point in hauling all that weight up in the air.

and wait till you see how rigged my spring guides and dropped upper shock mounts are, then you'll really be able to flame.

Pics soon to come as well as of the homemade rear bumper, rock sliders, and roof rack

[afirover]

we run cones and love them
when to moab this year and had a great time with open diffs imho they do help with keepin the wheel on the ground ...

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by Hank

300, in your above picture, that really show nothing. If the body is just "floating" how is it more stable? Although that wheel is on the ground, it is not doing anything; it's just sitting there. It's not holding the truck down and it's not providing traction.

You see this is where I would disagree.

Firstly a wheel on the ground will be providing traction, even if its to a lesser extent it is still traction you wouldn’t otherwise have.

Secondly it is providing some support. If the rear wheel itself was floating due to having less downwards travel, which it would if you where not running dislocation cones. Then the vehicle would be balancing on 3 wheels and could in theory more easily tip back thus lifting the front wheel off the ground. Another example was if the said vehicle got stuck and had to reverse out, with the cones you have 4 wheels in contact with the ground, without them you probably wouldn’t which could make the manoeuvre more difficult.

Originally Posted by Hank

I think you are the one who was talking about keeping a low center of gravity. Why would you compermise that with a body that rolls into the turn? You're making the truch a lot more "tippy" than what it needs to be.

I don’t think I mentioned anything about it in this thread????

But besides, why would it be more tippy?? With the spring seated it will act 100% per stock only at FULL articulation will it dislocate not while driving down the highway or thru town.

Originally Posted by Hank

If the truck was retained, the axle works as a sway bar; traction is placed to the wheel in the low side, and the upperside holds the truck down.

I’m not really certain of your description, but I don’t see how having a fully stretched/relaxed retained spring is really going to alter the function of the axle compared to a dislocated spring.

A spring under compression will push out as it wants to expand. However with no weight on the spring it is full uncompressed. At full articulation a retained spring will either be uncompressed or depending on setup actually be under tension, as in being stretched. In either case it will NOT be applying a downward force on the wheel and if it is being stretched may even be wanting to lift the wheel.

Originally Posted by Hank

Beside that, your above picture is of two complety different set-ups.

So are we supposed to only compare a single setup then???? I thought this thread was about dislocating cones not a single specific setup.

Originally Posted by Hank

One truch has a much larger tire and a taller lift. I can't really tell, but it looks like the control arms are different, too. All that does play a roll in the way a truck sits.

Yes they are different but that’s the whole point of running them. A STOCK ride height vehicle can run cranked trailing arms and dislocation cones and allow greater droop and axle articulation without the need run a big lift or affect normal road handling and ride quality.

In fact you could run slightly longer shocks, STOCK springs, cranked trailing arms, longer brake lines and modified bump stops. To achieve STOCK handling and ride with superior flex/articulation.

[Hank]

No matter what I say will convence you, I've learned that.

Pull up on a RTI ramp with two truck with a 2-3" lift and matching control arms. With the axles unlocked, drive the ramp; see which one go farther up the ramp.

As far as stability, you're wrong, again. A body that "floats" with no control of movement is not as stable as one that is actually attached to something. Look at the attached picture of Walter; if he had cones, the body would have rolled down the hill and he would have filpped. (no sure why they're standing on it, pussy's)

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by Hank

No matter what I say will convence you, I've learned that.

Well I guess this is a two way street.

Originally Posted by Hank

Pull up on a RTI ramp with two truck with a 2-3" lift and matching control arms. With the axles unlocked, drive the ramp; see which one go farther up the ramp.

Well in such competitions over here the ones with dislocation cones dominate such events.

Originally Posted by Hank

As far as stability, you're wrong, again. A body that "floats" with no control of movement is not as stable as one that is actually attached to something.

What do you mean attached to something????? What on earth do you call the shock and control arm then. The srping is NOT holding the vehcile together.

Originally Posted by Hank

Look at the attached picture of Walter; if he had cones, the body would have rolled down the hill and he would have filpped. (no sure why they're standing on it, pussy's)

I looked but I don't agree at all. In fact with a good dislocating suspension system I would expect the body to be more level. With less chance of roll over.

Following your logic about how the body will topple the vehicle then the pic posted by afirover (a couple of posts above) is totally impossible!!!!! But wait hang on a minute it isn't.

Now I'm not trying to odefend dislocation cones from some personal ambition, I'm simply looking at facts. And logically and according to the laws of physics I can't follow where you are going.

Again take afirover picture. See how the rear right wheel is still in contract with the ground and thus keeping the body almost perfectly level.

With a retained spring the rear wheel would NOT be able to droop as far, so 1 or 2 possibilities exist that I can see.

Firstly, but unlikely is the front wheels and rear left would remain where they are and the rear right would be hanging in the air at it's maximum travel. However due to the weight over that axle I don't believe this would happen.

What I believe would happen is that the wheel would extent to it's maximum droop and the vehcile would then lean over probably lifting the front left off the ground or at least extending it to it's fullest travel.

Either way the stability of the vehicle would be compromised.

Also going back to your pic, yeah dislocatoin cones allow more droop but it doesn't mean the body is all wobbly balancing on top of the suspension/axles. So having cones on that vehicle wouldn't mean the body would have definatly tipped over further.

Remember p76rangie was swearing that a compressed srping excerts force, ie push down. Which it does, so by retaining the spring the spring was pushing the wheel down and the body up, thus tipping it over.

This isn't a go or anything but to me it appears you have some very clean cut ideas about what a suspension system does with cones. However I would say your view is not accurate of what really happens. While the spring is seated it will behave 100% like a retained or stock setup. All it allows is extra down movement without being limited by the spring. However the axle and hub are still as attached to the vehcile as if the spring was retained via the shock and control arms.

Also if they are as bad as you seem to think and claim and as unstable as you also claim please answer me this.

How come EVERY single Land Rover specialist/shop in the UK sells or has developed their own dislocation cones/suspension?

And how come in all the SERIOIUS off road competition events held here dislocating suspension reigns as king.

As said before they are proven technology in terms of theory and real world example. They simply DO work and work well.

[Thor]

3ZedZed

You're obviously an evil genius attempting to rule the world with a mind controlling substance released when springs dislocate. The drug only works when the person is upsidedown hence trying to get all of our vehicled to roll shortly after spirng dislocation!

We're on to you.

We're retained.. we're proud.... get used to it!

(anyone have the number for the ARC to get a competition rule change?)