Springs: retention or cones?

[Thor]

For my education, since I have little real world experince in suspension design..... Most of my experience is seat of the pants try this, if you don't roll try something harder. I jumped from a 1995 with OME MD and 235/85 MT/R w/o anti-sways to a built rig (the prototype for my truck came up for sale, and I saved a ton of dough over buying and installing and trouble shooting myself) so, I am treading lightly with each trip out to learn the capabilities of my 1992.


I've heard a lot of talk about balanced travel front and rear. I've read in placed that equal front and rear travel is ideal. Whether they be retained or coned. Did I see front end cones in a UK mag in the recent past?

Sorry if this diverts the discussion, but I think it's relevant.

[Hank]

Look at any rock crawler. Why do they draw down the suspention with a winch when off camber or climbing hills? It couldn't be for stability, could it........

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by Thor

For my education, since I have little real world experince in suspension design..... Most of my experience is seat of the pants try this, if you don't roll try something harder. I jumped from a 1995 with OME MD and 235/85 MT/R w/o anti-sways to a built rig (the prototype for my truck came up for sale, and I saved a ton of dough over buying and installing and trouble shooting myself) so, I am treading lightly with each trip out to learn the capabilities of my 1992.


I've heard a lot of talk about balanced travel front and rear. I've read in placed that equal front and rear travel is ideal. Whether they be retained or coned.

Agree 100%

Originally Posted by Thor

Did I see front end cones in a UK mag in the recent past?

Yep. Most if not all dislocation kits mean front and rear. Although there is a lot more travel from the rears.

Now I don't have anything against retained springs and yeah of course they can work. But this is the way I look at it.

For arguments sake we assume we have a 100% stock vehicle. If we get it articulated so that one rear wheel is at maximum droop then that's all the movement that is availble. In this instance the spring is 'retained' as a norm but is no longer compressed. So it is not applying any force downwards.

By then either using shock mount droppers and/or longer shocks we can allow the wheel to drop further, i.e. better flex/more articulation.

However by allowing the the wheel to drop further the srping will no longer be retained and will fall out, so all a dislocation cone does it stop the srping flopping to one side and re-aligns it onto the seat when compressed. However you have not lost anything, because previously the spring was fully relaxed anyhow.

Of course you could add a longer spring which will remain in contact with the seat while allowing the wheel to drop further. But the down side with this is the longer spring will alter the ride hieght. A softer spring will compress more but this will then affect the bounce/jounce. This isn't a bad thing, but it is an alteration or difference from running cones.

However providing you still have suficent clearance the longer spring will still get to a point where it is full relaxed and would fall out of the retainer if the wheel dropped further. Securing the spring at the top is an altenrative but this then limits travel where as the addition of a dislocation cone would again allow the wheel to drop even further and prevent the spring from flopping out to the side and also re-seat it upon compression.

Now as you get to more and more extreme levels of articulation due to the spring not being a coil over it no longer just wants to extend down but outwards as well. So by securing the spring at the top it will twist and apply lateral foces to the mount. Allowing the spring to dislocate will allow greater down travel but will also allow the spring to move to the side and yet still re-seat when under compression.

Take a look at the Orange Discovery I posted a page or so back. Note it uses a dislocating plate and not a cone. This is done to allow the extreme articulation available from the kit. The spring not only moves down but outwards also.

See how far to the right the spring has moved. If it was a longer (A LOT LONGER, lol) retained spring it simply would not be happy stretching that amount.


|-------| If this is an axle and the upright lines represent the springs. As the right hand side dips the spring ideally would want to remain at 90* to axle. But retaining the spring means it is forced to remain 90* to the chassis and stretch and twist.

The shoch abosorber itself is under the same pressure and I have seen two successful solutions to it.

1. Scorpion Racing's Extreme kit, uses custom shock mounts which mount the shock further out and extend up.


2. Devon 4x4, they have devised a swivel mount for the shock allowing it extra and easier rotation.

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by Hank

Look at any rock crawler. Why do they draw down the suspention with a winch when off camber or climbing hills? It couldn't be for stability, could it........

That's a great picture. But LOOK at it, no seriously look at.

It has coilover suspension and the whole suspension/axle geometry is totally different and designed to work in a totally different way to a Land Rover.

Plus if you wanted having coilover damper setups mean the spring can dislocate and the body of the shock will do the same job as a dislocation cone, it will prevent the spring flopping out to one side and will re-seat it again under compression.

However running ultra long shocks and mounted as in the picture you posted then no dislocating springs/cones are probably not needed. But then again it ain't no Land Rover.

It like comparing how to tune and fuel a disel compared to tuning a petrol engine. Very different approaches although the end goal is the same.

EDIT:

As for reference to the winch, well I think the stability is not in this instance related to dislocating the springs. Centre of gravity and ride height are also factors. And the winch is centere over the diff. A retained spring on a Land Rover is at the end of the axle so it's function is totally different.

[Hank]

If you do get it, you don't get it. I don't know how else to explain it. It's like talking to a wall.

Your tire just hanging there is doing nothing.

The non-retained truck is more unstable.

Period.

One day, you'll understand.....maybe. But I'm not holding my breath.

[Duncan]

I for one appreciate the input from members on this subject . I was very interested in 300bhp/ton s views and expanations Thank you.

[SCSL]

300: in picture #1 in your post above, why is there a limiting strap on the bracket that doesn't seem to be attached to anything ??

[sevenrover]

Don't mean to interrupt or undermine anyone. but to answer your question SCSL it is there in case you need to jack up the rover to change a tire. Because no one makes jacks that tall. As for everyone. Does it really matter this much? cause personally because I am open, momentum is key. and not once, on any of the trails I have driven, have my cones scared me in any way. Or acted in any unexpected way for that matter. Don't get me wrong, I do see the benefits of both retained and coned, but that is why I am buying the SG kit. It has the best of both worlds.... But in the end, that is my opinion, and I know it will differ greatly from everyone elses...

[SCSL]

Originally Posted by sevenrover

but to answer your question SCSL it is there in case you need to jack up the rover to change a tire.

That would make sense. But look at the picture: how would you get a jack back there? It's inaccessible to a hi-lift, and too high-up for a bottle

[fivespddisco]

Originally Posted by SCSL

300: in picture #1 in your post above, why is there a limiting strap on the bracket that doesn't seem to be attached to anything ??

the straps are for when you need to use a HI lift to hold the axle up.

[SCSL]

Originally Posted by fivespddisco

the straps are for when you need to use a HI lift to hold the axle up.

see my prevous post

[Thor]

Originally Posted by SCSL

That would make sense. But look at the picture: how would you get a jack back there? It's inaccessible to a hi-lift, and too high-up for a bottle

Hi Lift at the slider or rear bumper, but first strap the axle to keep the spring from dislocating, I'd assume.

I could use some to keep my springs from stretching so far come to think of it.

[fivespddisco]

Originally Posted by Thor

Hi Lift at the slider or rear bumper, but first strap the axle to keep the spring from dislocating, I'd assume.

I could use some to keep my springs from stretching so far come to think of it.

Thanks

[p76rangie]

The reason that cones are a bit more popular in the UK is due to many of their competitions banninn diff locks. Therefore a little extra grip from dislocation is better than none.

The main reason for cones in general is because people lift their vehicles by using stiff springs. This limits axle movement unless you let the springs hang free. The other main reason is that they look cool.

I will be fitting cones in the future. It is not to let the springs hang, but to let them relocate if they happen to separate. I will be going to 18 inch long springs and longer shocks. In certain circumstances the longer shocks MAY let the springs hang out. So the cones will help out if it happens.

If I had the money and time to do the engineering changes, I would fit coil overs like Kings.

[SCSL]

Originally Posted by Thor

Hi Lift at the slider or rear bumper, but first strap the axle to keep the spring from dislocating, I'd assume.

I could use some to keep my springs from stretching so far come to think of it.

Ah, I misunderstood the first response. I thought what was said was that it wasn't a limiting strap at all, but rather a "hi-lift strap". So it's a regular limiting strap, but only used in the case of jacking the vehicle?

Originally Posted by p76rangie

The reason that cones are a bit more popular in the UK is due to many of their competitions banninn diff locks.

Really? I didn't know that. 300: say it isn't so! That's kinda weird for an off-road competition. What's the thought process behind that?