Springs: retention or cones?

[p76rangie]

The competitions are more at grass roots level. Therefore you try and make everyone competitive without spending large sums of money.

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by Hank

If you do get it, you don't get it. I don't know how else to explain it. It's like talking to a wall.

Your tire just hanging there is doing nothing.

Really, yet it isn't which again is proven in competition.

Originally Posted by Hank

The non-retained truck is more unstable.

Period.

HOW???

You keep going on about it, but fail to provide any form of substance to back up your claim. What is the theory behind your claim??

Please - I'd really like to know.

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by SCSL

300: in picture #1 in your post above, why is there a limiting strap on the bracket that doesn't seem to be attached to anything ??

Yep, that’s for jacking. On the extreme kit there is so much axle articulation that unless you jack on the diff you simply won’t lift the wheels off the ground.

I think in their blurb on their website they claim you’d need a 6’ high lift to actually bring the wheels off the ground.

Originally Posted by SCSL

That would make sense. But look at the picture: how would you get a jack back there? It's inaccessible to a hi-lift, and too high-up for a bottle

The check strap only holds the control arm/hub assy to prevent it from dropping. A high lift would be used in the bumper (most HD bumpers have provisions for it) or on the rock slider/sill protectors. Again HD units have provisions for it.

Originally Posted by SCSL

Really? I didn't know that. 300: say it isn't so! That's kinda weird for an off-road competition. What's the thought process behind that?

For ARC/ARLC which is the main Land Rover body of here yes lockers are not permitted. But neither are dislocation cones.

The reasoning behind it, is that the ARC are generally too far up their own arses, lol.

But I think it’s designed to limited the person with the most money having an ultimate rig and being un-competitive compared to stock or near stock vehicles.

However there are many other off roading and 4x4 competitions which do allow both. And both are used to very good effect.

But to be honest, it’s amazing where a well drive Land Rover can get without lockers. Rock crawling may be a different art but for mud and the terrain we have here you will see only a small advantage with lockers 90% of the time.

Originally Posted by p76ranngie

The competitions are more at grass roots level. Therefore you try and make everyone competitive without spending large sums of money.

Yes many are. But there are still some extreme purpose built machinery out there. Plus other events which are more OTT.

But the States and I daresay Oz are different in this respect. You have more space and freedom and more access to suitable power plants and equipment. Plus you don’t have to put up with nonsensical EU bullshit and red tape.

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by Cheviot4x4

A lift kit should not only lift your suspension resulting in greater ground clearance, approach and departure angle. It should also compensate for the higher centre of gravity and increased body roll.
Our Outlaw kit comprises of the same 2" lifted and uprated suspension springs as found in the Bandit kit. These are different strengths front to back as well as catering for the increased weight of the driver and fuel tank(when required) as often vehicles have only the driver in. Many kits do not cater for the driver which possibly why some kits sag on the drivers side. Our kits will not do this, however if they do then have complete piece of mind in the fact that our springs carry a lifetime guarantee.
Also included are +5" nitrogen charged shock absorbers. These are longer to allow even greater suspension travel while the Nitrogen gas gives outstanding control and damping both on and off road.
The extra travel necessitates the use on spring relocation cones at both front and rear, so at the front you get stainless steel cones. While at the rear we supply a re-location invertion kit, where the springs stay attached to the chassis and the cones are mounted on the axle.
The rear is finished off with a pair of 2" droop trailing arms for more articulation by relieving the stress on the bush giving a greater angle of droop before the bush reaches full compression.
With this amount of travel your standard brake lines become massively overstretched, so extended brake lines are included.
the kit includes:
• 4 x 2" lifted suspension springs
• 4 x +5" Nitrogen shock absorbers
• 4 x Polyurethane shock boots
• Stainless steel front re-location cones with stainless retainer plates
• Rear spring inversion cones
• Stainless steel extended brake lines
• 2" drop trailing arms

http://www.cheviot4x4.com/shop/Vehic...di+Outlaw+Kit/

Originally Posted by Devon 4x4

D44 Spring Relocation Cones
d44reloc
Unseated springs, whether intentional or accidental can be dangerous and inconvenient if not properly managed.

D44 relocation cones will safely guide an unseated spring back into the spring seat wihtout fuss.

A simple bolt-in fitment, the D44 cone can save hours of problems in the field, even on vehicles running standard suspension packages.

Supplied in pairs

http://www.devon4x4.com/shop.php?mod...cat=7&subcat=6

Originally Posted by Paddock Spares

One of the most popular off roading accessories on the market.

When you're pushing your Landy to the limit off road you're going to need them!

http://www.paddockspares.com/pp/OFF_...fender_90.html

Originally Posted by Scorpion Racing

Add this kit to your standard or lifted vehicle (no need to buy springs and shocks) for an extra 2 inches more droop travel.
Remember:
wheels on ground = stability and traction.

Now if dislocation cones are such a BAD thing as Hank claims they are, in turn giving worse stability than stock when off roading and no extra grip. In fact it appears Hank is claiming a vehicle with dislocation cones would actually be less capable off road.
Then WHY do so many places sell them?

Go to any reputably Land Rover specialist in the UK and they will all say dislocation cones work and are a good idea for serious off roading.

More importantly they claim this in their advertising.

NOW the UK is different to the USA, companies over here simply can not and would not make false claims. It’s just not done. There is far more red tape and if such items where dangerous or false they would not be permitted to market them as they do.

It is for this reason there is no such thing as Ford Racing or GM Performance over here. You CAN NOT go and buy supercharger kits here like you can in the Sates for Mustangs and such. And the reason being warranties and false claims.

In the US Ford Racing sell a Eaton blower for the sn95 Mustang, but they do NOT warranty the engine. This would be illegal here in the UK and if Ford wanted to sell a similar kit they would also have to warranty the engine/car.
The same goes for dislocation cones. If they where unsafe as Hank claims they would NOT be sold in the UK in the manner in which they are.

[p76rangie]

300bhp. You appear to argue against yourself. In one breath you state that the weight of the wheel gives tration, then you state that same wheel held onto the chassis by a retained spring would not help stop it rolling over.

I had to laugh at your comments stating that if a British manufacturer claims something, then it must be true cause they don't lie

A well set up suspension will work wonders. I see excellent setups regularly. One of the best I have seen was on this years OBC winner. These are US products like king springs.

What I see on many of the trucks with dislocation cones are poor setups. As stated previously, they put stiff springs on with little movement ans then wack on cones. Also they only get the back of the truck to move with the 3 point suspension. With their stiff springs they cannot get the front to move. So in most of the photos posted on this thread and others, the trucks a leaning with the front suspension. This is not a stable or well setup truck. Cones can have there place. I have said that I am looking at putting them on mine. But not in the context of this thread.

Mostly they are a wank factor put by people who don't know wat they are doing. But everone goes oooh aaah, doesn't that look cool. I have seen a lot of vehicles with those angle indicators, roof racks, chinese winches, and hiclones. Doesn't make them a good idea.

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

300bhp. You appear to argue against yourself. In one breath you state that the weight of the wheel gives tration, then you state that same wheel held onto the chassis by a retained spring would not help stop it rolling over.

I don't recall saying that at all, could you show me where? In fact I don't recall saying anything remotly like either of the two comments you posted.

Originally Posted by p76rangie

I had to laugh at your comments stating that if a British manufacturer claims something, then it must be true cause they don't lie

It's not that they don't, but the fact that if they all did and it was false they would be prosecuted and put out of business. Sure there are wild one of claims but not an entire industry.

But by all means deliberatly take it out of context :nono:

Originally Posted by p76rangie

A well set up suspension will work wonders

I agree, and that does mean ANY good setup, cones regardless.

Originally Posted by p76rangie

What I see on many of the trucks with dislocation cones are poor setups. As stated previously, they put stiff springs on with little movement ans then wack on cones. Also they only get the back of the truck to move with the 3 point suspension. With their stiff springs they cannot get the front to move. So in most of the photos posted on this thread and others, the trucks a leaning with the front suspension. This is not a stable or well setup truck.

Well I guess you know more than companies which have invested much time, money, devlopment and testing then.

All bow to p76rangie he evidently knows more than the professionals who do this as a full time living.......

[nfrey2]

Stiff springs get put on vehicles because its the most economical way to get the lift. Cones are another way to make something not ideal work economically.
I myself can't afford $2000 in custom wound springs with the rates to my liking. Maybe once Ive graduated and have a real job it will be a different story. But I will still put cones on for the possibilty of a spring unseating, I've broken a shock mount allowing the spring to dislocate and its an SOB to try to get that spring back in there on the trail.

[Hank]

Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton

HOW???

You keep going on about it, but fail to provide any form of substance to back up your claim. What is the theory behind your claim??

Please - I'd really like to know.

You really are a moron, aren't you...

First, go get your little dictionary and define the following words, because I know you do not know what the mean:
Inertia
Velocity
Gravity
Centripetal Force
Kinetic Energy

After you've done that, TRY and follow me here. Yet, I bet you STILL do not understand.

Take your dumb ass cone idea and imagine how is it set up. What does the cone allow the spring to do? Unseat, right? There is not restrain on the spring either, right? It just falls out. By the spring just falling out, your limiting factor is going to be either the shock or the control arm. Basically, your truck is in an "uncontrolled" "body lean" when your in a position to the effect of a spring dropping out; Not always, but a big percentage of the time.

On the flip side, there is noting supporting the side of the vehicle when the spring is dropped. The shock surly is not doing it. Thus, the opposite front tire become lighter. Why? Because there is no force, at all, pushing on the corner that is dropped out. As the axle articulates, the spring may remain unseated but 4-5" for a period of time. Where as, if a retained truck articulates, even a 1/4", force is then applied to the opposite corner, AS WELL as the corner making contact with the ground. So, what do we have? MORE traction with a retained truck.

Let's say you're rolling down a trail or rock garden. The front end dips into a hole and the rear corner begins to come up. As the body rolls (Inertia) the gravity and kinetic energy will continue to "roll" the body in the direction closest to the ground. In in un-retained truck, what will stop the kinetic energy? The cone?? The shock? The control arm? The weight of the tire? The springs? Are you starting to actually think, yet? I dought you are... The front spring that drops into the whole will then work to "support" the vehicle. It that, alone, going to stop the Inertia? No. There has to be more resistance there. What is going to stop the kinetic energy stored in the body roll? Well, is has to come from the opposite corner, or the corner raising up. If you have a cone, you are not utilizing the weight of the wheel, axle, or the leverage of the planted wheel on the same axle to stop the movement. Instead, the body continues to roll uncontrollably, as much as 14-18", until the shock grabs the axle.

At this point, your wheel is just hanging there. It's doing noting but sitting there. It provides VERY minimal traction (if you have not rolled) and once the truck is moving forward again, until that spring re-seats, optimum traction will not be gained by the opposite corner wheel.

So, I think it can be agreed that a truck with cones has more body roll, right? Damn, I sure hope you understand that. If not, you're a lost cause.

Transversing a sideways terrian.... If it takes ~220lbs+ of force to stretch a spring, what will have more effect in controlling body roll? A spring? Or, a cone that will unseat the spring with nothing more than gravity? Like wise, id a spring is pulling up on an axle, the energy is then directed to the opposite of the axle, doing what?? Putting increased weight on that wheel, right? Would that mean both more traction and increased stability? Wow!

You idiots who run a cone set up do so because you think flexy is sexy. There is no other reason to do so. If you would direct your money from the mile long shocks and the cones, and put it toward a locker, you may actually have something to talk about.

I don't care where you go, anyone competing in pro level competitions will never be running a cone or revolver style set-up. It's stupid, and it does nothing to make your truck any better than it already was.

Now, I agree that it is best to keep your wheel planted on the ground, but if it's just hanging there in mid air, all it's doing is fucking you up.

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by Hank

You really are a moron, aren't you...

Look you twat, had I previously been calling you names???

So lay off it alright.

Originally Posted by Hank

First, go get your little dictionary and define the following words, because I know you do not know what the mean:
Inertia
Velocity
Gravity
Centripetal Force
Kinetic Energy

After you've done that, TRY and follow me here. Yet, I bet you STILL do not understand.

Yeah you right as a professional engineer and holding a BSc I have no idea of any of those terms

Originally Posted by Hank

Take your dumb ass cone idea

More insults, gee you are being a real baby about this aren’t you.

Originally Posted by Hank

and imagine how is it set up. What does the cone allow the spring to do? Unseat, right?

WRONG

You see your argument is flawed from the start, the spring ONLY unseats at maximum articulation, not at any other time!!!!!

Originally Posted by Hank

There is not restrain on the spring either, right? It just falls out.

It is designed too

Originally Posted by Hank

By the spring just falling out, your limiting factor is going to be either the shock or the control arm.

Wrong AGAIN. The limiting factor will always be the shock even on a stock setup or a retained spring setup. The shock is rigid and unless it breaks it will only extend to its maximum.

Sure on extreme setups the control arm can limit movement but this is just due to limitations rather than design, hence you can get cranked trailing arms and rose jointed trailing arms.

A spring does not limit travel by design, that’s because on automotive vehicles the springs are used under compression not tension. Meaning a vehicle sitting level loads the spring by compressing/squashing it. As the wheel drops when flexing the spring extends, however it does not stretch by all that much unless it is being over used, too much tension. But the more force applied would make the spring longer and longer until it was not a coil. So for the spring to really limit travel it would probably be in the region of 3 or 4 times the length of the coiled spring in it’s natural relaxed state.

Now this ISN’T a go at all. But I think because you seem to be miss-understanding how the suspension works you are having unfounded biased and incorrect views towards certain setups. Come on be a man, own up and say “hay I got it wrong lads, sorry”.

Originally Posted by Hank

Basically, your truck is in an "uncontrolled" "body lean" when your in a position to the effect of a spring dropping out; Not always, but a big percentage of the time.

But it ISN’T uncontrolled, if it where all these vehicles running dislocation cones would keep falling over like Lemmings of a bridge.

But you don’t, and why? Because they are full stable.

Originally Posted by Hank

On the flip side, there is noting supporting the side of the vehicle when the spring is dropped. The shock surly is not doing it.

Why is a shock not offering support?

And appear to be getting confused with IRS and live axle setups.

With a live rear as one side pushes up the other pushes down.

SIMPLE!

Originally Posted by Hank

Let's say you're rolling down a trail or rock garden. The front end dips into a hole and the rear corner begins to come up. As the body rolls (Inertia) the gravity and kinetic energy will continue to "roll" the body in the direction closest to the ground. In in un-retained truck, what will stop the kinetic energy? The cone?? The shock? The control arm? The weight of the tire? The springs?

AGAIN it’s not 100% the spring which stops movement like this, you really need to go and see some vehicles running dislocation cones if you can’t see this.

Again, if you where right, NEARLY EVERY Land Rover competing in non ARC events would topple over at the first dip because nearly all of them run dislocation cones.

But once more they don’t!!!!!

If you really want to know what stops the inertia it’s the front suspension, YES the front!!!

The weight transfer is over the front of the vehicle if the front has gone into a dip, what a stock or retained spring setup will do is lean and tilt forward until the rear suspension is at maximum articulation, once this happens then the rear tyre will lift off the ground and if the angle is extreme enough the vehicle will tip over.

What dislocation cones allow is for the axle to articulate further meaning the body can lean over more before it will pick the rear wheel off the ground, however when the maximum travel is exceeded exactly the same thing will occur as with a retained spring, the wheel will lift off the ground.

Originally Posted by Hank

Are you starting to actually think, yet?

Yep, I’m starting to think you’re a total arse hole, :jest:

Originally Posted by Hank

I dought you are...

Gonna guess you meant doubt??

Originally Posted by Hank

The front spring that drops into the whole will then work to "support" the vehicle. It that, alone, going to stop the Inertia? No.

Depends it may or may not, see above.

But once more you seem to be totally miss understanding what the spring does.

Suspension springs in this instance are not used to stretch as a spring in a catapult might. Sure some can stretch but they are generally soft springs and certainly would not be able to stop a vehicle from tipping over but are there to allow extra travel and remain retained. But that is NOT what you have been saying.

This would be so easy to explain with props. Have you ever had a RC buggy/truck like a Losi or something???

The suspension is IRS but the shock works in the same manner as any shock, it limits the travel and the spring (like the rock crawler you posted earlier) only retains the springs by keeping them under compression all the time, even when FULLY extended.

To put it simply, and I hope fairly politely – you seem to be totally confused about what a spring is used for in a Land Rover suspension system.

Originally Posted by Hank

There has to be more resistance there. What is going to stop the kinetic energy stored in the body roll? Well, is has to come from the opposite corner, or the corner raising up. If you have a cone, you are not utilizing the weight of the wheel, axle, or the leverage of the planted wheel on the same axle to stop the movement. Instead, the body continues to roll uncontrollably, as much as 14-18", until the shock grabs the axle.

Again still under the wrong impression of what a spring does, and NO the body does not continue to roll uncontrollably.

I mean come on you can’t, you really can’t be this stupid. According to your words if the body starts to lean with cones then it will continue until it topples, but once again HOW the SMEG do people actually use such setups, if according to YOU they are so unstable. I mean they would be lucky to make it over a parking curb let alone a trail or trial.

The simple fact that people DO indeed use such setups and DO NOT have the problems you describe shows your whole reasoning to be flawed and inaccurate.

Originally Posted by Hank

At this point, your wheel is just hanging there. It's doing noting but sitting there. It provides VERY minimal traction (if you have not rolled)

See once again you seem convinced that they will roll at the first incline, but they DON’T 1000’s of people over here run these setups and DO NOT roll over.

Originally Posted by Hank

and once the truck is moving forward again, until that spring re-seats, optimum traction will not be gained by the opposite corner wheel.

Under full articulation a retain spring at full stretch/relaxed state will be offer no extra downwards force.

This again goes back to the fundamentals of how a LIVE AXLE setup works. It is primarily this that provides the downward force and thus the traction, but it is this same process whether it has cones or retained springs!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Hank

So, I think it can be agreed that a truck with cones has more body roll, right?

NO!

It simply allows more articulation for the length of spring being used. If that same spring was retained you would loose ‘x’ inches of articulation.

Originally Posted by Hank

Transversing a sideways terrian.... If it takes ~220lbs+ of force to stretch a spring,

See it’s NOT about stretching springs it’s about compressing. This is where you whole argument falls apart.

Damn I really wish I could explain this verbally with the aid of props, it would be so much easier.

Right imagine a coil spring, like this:


Ok see that in there natuarally relaxed state the coils are quite far apart.

When fitted to a vehicle the will compress and become shorter. And if the wheel is moved up the coils will bind closer together.

Under articulation on the wheel moving down the spring will decompress, note decompress not stretch.

Here is a NON-retained, NON-dislocation cone spring under articulation:


See how it has almost returned to it’s natural fully relaxed state as in the above picture. At this point in time the spring is just balanced between the spring seats and is affectively doing nothing. If the wheel continued to move down then the spring would simply fall out, hence dislocation cones prevent it falling to the side and also re-seat it again upon compression. But what they have allowed is EXACTLY the same control as the spring fully relaxed but increased the amount of flex.

Now it is very rare that you will see a spring being stretched. Sure if you retained the spring at the top and bottom but added a longer shock to continue the movement downwards then given enough force it would stretch the spring. But a stiff spring would require an enormous amount of force to stretch it and this would be beyond the rating of the spring seats in most cases. Hence under ARC regs strings may only be retained with plastic cable ties, so if the stress gets too much the cable tie will break.

The cable tie is put thru the top coil and the upper spring seat.

Of course longer softer springs will stretch easier but in this instance all they are doing is keeping the seat in contact with the spring seats. The spring will be too soft to have any affect or control over the body.

Here is a nice example:


Here you can see the spring is FULL relaxed, it is not being compressed or under tension but is being retained by the upper spring seat. This is the way most stock suspension setups work. And the shock is dictating the amount of travel. In this state the sping is doing nothing other than sitting there. It’s not pushing up or down.

By adding a longer shock the wheel can move further down, thus increasing articulation. The shock is STILL limiting the travel, but as the spring was full relaxed it CAN NOT extend any further. Hence it has now become unseated.

NOTE: The spring is the same length when dislocated as when the old shock limited to shorter travel, this PROVES the spring is not limiting the travel in any way shape or form.



Now the addition of a long dislocation cone on the top seat would allow the spring to re-seat itself if it became dislocated while in use. Although with that much dislocation a longer spring and cones would probably work better.

IF the owner had retained the stock spring to the spring seats it would have tried to stretch the spring under articulation, which is bad for the spring and would apply immense forces on the spring seats. A VERY BAD IDEA.

However they came up with a different idea, it basically involved running what is essentially a longer dual stage spring so that it could still articulate as far but remain seated at all times.





NOW!

When a spring is retained in many of the setups being talked about here, what happens is the spring is either softer or dual stage. This means it will compress further when on the vehicle.

HOWEVER the important point to note is that under articulation it will not stretch but merely extend to its fully relaxed state. Maybe on an extreme setup it will stretch a little if it is physically retained but not in the manner you are implying.

Originally Posted by Hank

You idiots who run a cone set up do so because you think flexy is sexy.

Again with the insults, keep on like that and you’ll probably be banned.

BTW – I don’t run dislocations cones, but a retained setup!

Originally Posted by Hank

There is no other reason to do so. If you would direct your money from the mile long shocks and the cones, and put it toward a locker, you may actually have something to talk about.

Ignorance is bliss isn’t it?

Originally Posted by Hank

I don't care where you go, anyone competing in pro level competitions will never be running a cone or revolver style set-up.

But they DO!

It’s not a debate it’s FACT.

Originally Posted by Hank

It's stupid,

Only for those who don’t understand and want to bash based on unfounded personal bias.

Originally Posted by Hank

and it does nothing to make your truck any better than it already was.

I think this has been covered already.

Originally Posted by Hank

Now, I agree that it is best to keep your wheel planted on the ground, but if it's just hanging there in mid air, all it's doing is fucking you up.

Seriously go LEARN about how they work then come back to me.

I’ve done my best to explain the limited knowledge I have but there is far more out there. But without talking insult just accept that your views on how the suspension works are not entirely accurate.

Seriously you will learn something.

[01001010]

Wow...I certainly did learn something...Thank you Matt for that detailed explination!

[Hank]

See, if you don't get it, you don't get it. It brings us back to my first post, that you were too stupid to understand. Go ramp the truck.

If un-retained spring er so nice, and gave so much more traction, why do we have coil overs? Why do buggies that run off-camber trails not run cones or revolvers? Why do they run winches to "tighten" up the suspention?

You're thinking about this WAY too much. The set-up sucks.

For every action, there has to be a reaction. If a spring is not making contact with the frame, it's not doing anything. How can you argue this? The shock is not holding force on the frame. The control arm isn't, either. Shit, pull the rear spring out completly and do a burn out. You will be able to spin the tire a 1/4 mile.....WHY????

Fuck man, even in NASCAR they are putting more pressure on one sping vs the other. Know why????? It couldn't be for traction, could it?

How about on pulling trucks? A sexy flexy susp. gives them great traction to, don't it?

Mud buggies?

Rock crawlers?

Drag racers?

Bull Dozers?

Again, it's a simple test.

[Jarrodw]

I have had both. I am going back to spring retainers. The reason I am going back is because I now have lockers. Massive amounts of wheel travel becomes a mute point because I can lock the diff and keep momentum going even with a wheel off the ground. I did not like the clanking of the spring re-seeting. Also the shocks had to hold all the unsprung weight, thus making it a failure point. Shocks are not made for this. However, I have not had a shock fail. Also, in some cases, there are advantages of keeping unsprung weight on the ground. So for me, when I was running open diffs, I used cones. Now with lockers, the disadvantages of cones out way the advantages. I know this debate could go on and on because the trail conditions and driving style will add variable that will skew the point both directions.
-Jarrod

[p76rangie]

300bhp,So much about nothing. But I find it entertaining. You may be an engineer, but you certainly not a automotive engineer. The only argument you appear to come up with is that there are lots of people with them, so they must be good.

I love the argument about that they would not design something that was no good off-road. I would like the new Corvette. Great car, lousy off-road though. 99.9% of SUVs would not leave a sealed road. There are always people that want to dress up their car. That is why they make those pimp wheels for SUVs and some have neon lights under them. But of course they would never make parts for this market. They would only make parts that were really made to improve the off-road performance. keep them coming LOL