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Old 07-01-2009, 07:10 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Axle and Diff Questions, P76range?

I have a 91 RRC with the stock 10 spline axles and went and talked to a guy who works on rovers around here. He said that my half shafts are going to break the next time I offroad :O

I saw the thread about the 10 spline vs 24 spline axles and now I feel a bit better but is there anybody who makes stronger 10spline axles than the OEM Land Rover ones?

My dad put a RDO3 arb locker in recently before I took over his project and now im freaking out because im afraid im going to have to get a RD56 (24spline) locker and replace all my half shafts with disco ones


Any words of wisdom?


-William
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Old 07-01-2009, 08:25 PM   #2 (permalink)
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There is virtually no difference in strength between stock 24 spline and stock 10 spline. HD 24 spline axles are relatively easy to find, HD 10 spline are harder to locate. The only place that I know of that makes HD 10 spline is Maxi-drive. But they have changed names and you will have to do a Google search to find the new name. I have Maxi-drive 10 spline axles in the front. In a significant number of years I only broke 1 front standard axle and that was with a front locker and 34 inch Simex tyres. But if you drive like an idiot you will break anything.

THe rear axle takes most the load and I upgraded those to HD when I went to 4.11 diff ratios. Up to that time I had only ever broken 1 rear. It is just that the 4.11's put more stress on the axles and it was finally enough to put it past the strength of the axles.

But I emphasise again that I run front and rear lockers with aggressive 34 inch tyres. If you drive sensibly, you should not have an issue with standard axles. If you drive like an idiot and upgrade to HD axles, you will start breaking CV's, C&P's, etc.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:49 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by p76rangie View Post
There is virtually no difference in strength between stock 24 spline and stock 10 spline. HD 24 spline axles are relatively easy to find, HD 10 spline are harder to locate. The only place that I know of that makes HD 10 spline is Maxi-drive. But they have changed names and you will have to do a Google search to find the new name. I have Maxi-drive 10 spline axles in the front. In a significant number of years I only broke 1 front standard axle and that was with a front locker and 34 inch Simex tyres. But if you drive like an idiot you will break anything.

THe rear axle takes most the load and I upgraded those to HD when I went to 4.11 diff ratios. Up to that time I had only ever broken 1 rear. It is just that the 4.11's put more stress on the axles and it was finally enough to put it past the strength of the axles.

But I emphasise again that I run front and rear lockers with aggressive 34 inch tyres. If you drive sensibly, you should not have an issue with standard axles. If you drive like an idiot and upgrade to HD axles, you will start breaking CV's, C&P's, etc.


uhh... ten spline have less contact pattern than a higher-splined axle., therefore the WILL break soon under ANY conditions. i believe that it might be possible to convert the 10-spline ARB to 24-spline. go to dweb and search. there is much better info over there on this subject. just beware of the BS and ignore posts from douchebags.
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Old 07-02-2009, 04:49 AM   #4 (permalink)
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uhh... ten spline have less contact pattern than a higher-splined axle., therefore the WILL break soon under ANY conditions. i believe that it might be possible to convert the 10-spline ARB to 24-spline. go to dweb and search. there is much better info over there on this subject. just beware of the BS and ignore posts from douchebags.
You're an idiot.
Yes, you can convert a 10 spline ARB locker to a 24 spline, but the cost makes it more viable to sell the old one and buy a new one. They also have different size bearings, which increases the cost more.
The increased number of splines means that there is less load applied to each spline. This prevents them wearing as badly. But it is very very rare to strip out the splines on an axle. Where they break is not where the splines are. The number of splines has little relationship to the strength of the axle. Maybe you can go to Dweb and see if you can find someone that has ever stripped out the splines on their axles.

Go to Ashcroft's site and you will find the test results for both 10 and 24 spline axles. You just love commenting on things that you know NOTHING about. I only posted my experience with the different axles in different types of driving. You can only quote what you read on Dweb.
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Old 07-02-2009, 09:38 AM   #5 (permalink)
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You're an idiot.

Ian, why do yo start all you posts with, "you're an idiot." Why don't you calm down a bit and think about rephrasing what you say and how you say it? We'll all be better off.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:42 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Try calling Bill at Great Basin Rovers; he usually has HD 10 spline axles in stock.

By the way; if you have a RRC, and a Mk.II RR is called a P38; why is your thread title talking about a P76???
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Old 07-02-2009, 04:11 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Ian, why do yo start all you posts with, "you're an idiot." Why don't you calm down a bit and think about rephrasing what you say and how you say it? We'll all be better off.
Why do you exaggerate?
It is only replies to really stupid responses that attack something I say that MAY get an "You're an Idiot" response. It would be a very very small percentage of my responses. He had nothing to say and only posted to attack what I had stated. Besides, he is an idiot, he proves it every time he posts.
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Old 07-02-2009, 04:13 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by XtremeMarine View Post
Try calling Bill at Great Basin Rovers; he usually has HD 10 spline axles in stock.
Just remember that they are two very different types of 10 spline axles that varied by model.
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Old 07-02-2009, 06:16 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Even if it were Extra Heavy Duty, I would not install 10-spline crap in a 5,ooolb truck with a locker. That's just dumb.

The 10-spline stuff has a deeper spline cut. This reduced the diameter of the axle at the spline. The stock 10-spline stuff does not break at the spline because the entire axle is crap. Although the spline area is technically "weakest" area of the shaft, it pnly breaks there sometimes because the rest of the shaft is crap, too.

Stock 24-spline axles are crap, too. The metal sucks and it's unpredictable as to where they will break. I've broken many 24-spline axles shafts, both front and rear. Here are a few:

You can see that this axle broke at the splines:


Here is an axle that broke just in front of the axle seal:


Here is another that broke at the hub:


The metal, as you can see, is shit. We know the metal is shit because of the clean breaks. look at the break on one of my axles:


You could not cut an axle in half any better. Good metal will shatter and splinter. The edges would be all jagged and sharp. The stock Rover axles are junk.

Now when you get into some "HD" type axles, it's a different story. Just like a chain, the HD axle will break at its weakest link.

This picture explains a lot:


As you can see in the pic above, you want the main shaft to be the "thinnest" part of the axle. This allows the axle to twist and flex and distribute the abuse across the length of the shaft. Instead of just breaking, the axle will twist before breaking.

But what happens is when you cut only 10 splines into an axle, the cuts are deeper, thus reducing the axle diameter. 24 splines are not cut as deep. 30 splines are shallower yet. So, the more splines you have, the more "meat" that is left on the axle.

When the smallest diameter of the axle is the spline area, the spline will twist before the axle shaft does. Or, once the axle shaft has reached its maximum allowable rotation, the spline will then begin to twist. you want the axle shaft to twist before the splines do as the axles shaft and twist a hell of a lot more than the splines can:


I've seen a few Rovertracks HD axle failures. Everyone was broken at the splines because of the axle design....the root of the splines is smaller than the actual shaft of the axle. On the Rovertracks design, the shaft is not allowed to rotate and twist - they just snap at the weakest link.

Comparing a stock 10 spline to a stock 24 spline is like comparing a Big Blue coil spring to a Bearmach coil spring.....you never had shit to start with. The real test would be to compare an "HD" 10 spline to a "HD" 24 spline. Even then the test is flawed as you cannot reproduce the mystery shit that goes on with momentums, etc.... But just like the Bobby Longfield 27 spline vs 30 spline axle test, the higher spline will still prove to be stronger.




So, the real question is, is Ian a fucking dip shit moron? The answer is yes, and here is why:

The axle spines are very important for axle strength. But I'm sure Ian was dispute this. So lets look at it.

Axle spines have two parts, Major Diameter and Minor Diameter. Here's a pic to help visualize:


We don't need to get into the shape of the splines, the pressure angle, or the diametrical pitch as Ian is too stupid to understand all that.

As illustrated in the diagram above, the major diameter is the diameter of the splined section of the shaft measured at the outside or tips of the teeth of the splines. The diameter of the shaft at the bottom of the grooves between the teeth is the minor diameter of the splines.

Look at the difference between a 10 and 24 spline. Although one ale appears to be a Rovertracks type axle, you can still see the difference in splines.


Starting to see why more splines the better? I bet Ian does not...

Now look at the profile of the axle spline cuts. The 10 spline is square, whereas the 24 spline is involute. Here's what I'm talking about:


Involute splines have teeth with a profile as shown in the above pic where the tip is narrower than the base. Involute splines have 3 distinct advantages over square cut:

* Involute spline couplings have greater torque-transmitting capacity than any other type
* Involute splines can be produced using the same techniques and equipment as is used to cut gears; and
* Involute splines have a self-centering action under load even when there is backlash between mating members

Square cut splines are quite old-fashioned and are rarely used anymore.

But anyway, I'm bored now. Ian is an idiot.

References:
"Machinery's Handbook" 24th Edition. Erik Oberg, Franklin D. Jones, Holbrook L. Horton, Henry H. Ryffel, Robert E. Green; Industrial Press Inc., 1992 p.475

"Engineer to Win". Carroll Smith; Motorbooks International, 1985 p.115

"Engineer to Win". Carroll Smith; Motorbooks International, 1985 p.119

"Machinery's Handbook" 24th Edition. Erik Oberg, Franklin D. Jones, Holbrook L. Horton, Henry H. Ryffel, Robert E. Green; Industrial Press Inc., 1992 p.2034

"Machinery's Handbook" 24th Edition. Erik Oberg, Franklin D. Jones, Holbrook L. Horton, Henry H. Ryffel, Robert E. Green; Industrial Press Inc., 1992 p.265

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Old 07-03-2009, 01:06 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Just remember that they are two very different types of 10 spline axles that varied by model.
That's why I told him to call GBR. So he could talk to someone that actually KNOWS what he is talking about; and actually has the parts he needs in stock. Not to get advice from people that think they know the answers, or are just posting for the sake of posting.
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Old 08-20-2009, 05:01 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Back from the dead, I have a 1991 RRC w/ ABS and I have read from Ashcroft Transmissions that I have a 24 spline rear axle???

Quote:
Range Rover Classic

Front Axle

VIN CA to HA610293, Non ABS, axles with a suffix A serial number,

Standard : halfshafts are 10 sp at the diff and 23 sp at the CV,

Upgrades : HD Shafts (OSF) please note to fit our shafts you will have to fit some form of 24 spline diff centre, HD CV Joints (CVE) HD Drive Flanges (5806M)

Note : to fit these CV"s you will have to either purchase modified stub axles from us at a cost of £ 100 / pair or remove and machine yours to THIS drawing, once machined they should look like this

VIN CA to HA610293, Non ABS, axles with a suffix B serial number,

Standard : halfshafts are 10 sp at the diff and 32 sp at the CV,

Upgrades : HD Shafts (OSF) please note to fit our shafts you will have to fit some form of 24 spline diff centre, HD CV Joints (CVE) HD Drive Flanges (5806M)

Note : the stub axles on this axle will look like this, to fit our heavy duty CV"s you will have to purchase modified stub axles from us at a cost of £ 100 / pair.

VIN CA to HA610293, with ABS,

please advise Axle number,

Rear Axle

Non ABS,

Standard : halfshafts are 10 sp at the diff and have an integral drive flange with a thick flange,

Upgrades : HD Shafts (OSR) HD Drive Flanges (5806M)

With ABS,

Standard : halfshafts are 24 sp at the diff and have a separate drive flange
,
Im confused.. Is this right?
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Old 08-20-2009, 05:09 PM   #12 (permalink)
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91 RRC has a 10 spline axle unless someone has converted it to 24 spline. The only way they left the factory was a 10 spline though.
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Old 08-20-2009, 05:11 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Is there any way to tell short of pulling the axle out?

Tell how many splines are on your axle.
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Old 08-20-2009, 07:01 PM   #14 (permalink)
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not really
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Old 08-20-2009, 07:26 PM   #15 (permalink)
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damn, i just realized im only running 32's (235/85/R16's), do i really need to worry about my axles breaking with a rear diff locker and a CDL? This is assuming i don't drive like a retard.
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