Ford threatens Land Rover

[garland823]

after 10 years and 250k miles, i cant really think of any real problems my dad's had with his disco. the a/c fan went out and the windshield wiper motor was all but dead for a while, but those jsut got fixed. sad, its almost a civilized car now.

[ibjettin]

Off a bit, but still along the same subject... Harley Davidson bought back the company from AMF... Look what they have now

Talk to Harley owners and they sound just like Rover owners

[provenceman]

Well folks I am going to add my humble opinion to this thread.

I just purchased a new 2005 LR3 a few months ago. I have always admired land rover and have always dreamed of owning one. I finally was in a position to buy one. I have read about the reliability issues associated with the Discovery's etc. I have owend many vehicles in my lifetime including Ford ,Chrylser, GM, Jaguar, Mercedes etc.
And you know they all have had some issue with reliability. I guess its beacuse they are all machines with many, many moving parts supplied by many different maunfacturers and no matter how hard you strive to make the perfect machine you just cannot. You have human error to contend with and many other variables.

If anyone can find the perfect machine please let me kowso I can buy one.

Provenceman

[Series 3 guy]

Originally Posted by ibjettin

Off a bit, but still along the same subject... Harley Davidson bought back the company from AMF... Look what they have now

Talk to Harley owners and they sound jusy like Rover owners

THATS THE BEST f*****g IDEA YET!!!!!! I would love to get all the Land Rover owners together and Takover the company for ourselves.How cool and unrealistic is that??? Would be great though.

[apbtpetey]

I just read through this thread and have to say a few quick things here.

Have have now owned 15 ford productions ranging from a ford probe to a lincoln mark viii, town car, and navigator. I will say one thing I have never been left stranded by any of them. While I have only owned some for as short of a time as 1 year (due to company leasing), they have always been strong running and trouble free.

Example my wife currently drives a 2001 ford escape xlt v-6 4wd, she loves it as do I. We brought new in 2001 and have put on just under 100,000 miles. Only had to replace minor common things such as tires, front brakes (still haven't had to touch the rear ones) and things of similar nature. Everything has held up great even with having to young kids and making a few cross country trips with in the Escape.

While my current disco doesnt fall under ford controlled Land Rover, I loved the looks of it and the fact that ford now owns them. Ford is moving Land Rover into the right place business wise. Current new land rover buyers are looking for the luxury end of the suv scale. New Rovers are competing not with the likes of Jeeps, but instead with Escalades, Navigators, Benz, and BMW. Inorder to jump ahead in the US market they needed to make upgrades. While it would be great to have them make Rovers do what they were orginially meant to do, enough people just are not looking for it anymore. They are wanting the ca like ride with the knowledge that they could go places cars cannot. They also like they feeling of being safer by being in a suv.

All in all if the buying market was looking for an orginal type rover Ford would be making the new ones more like the older ones, but that just isnt the case for the majority of the market. Look at the number of new Jags that they sell now, Ford had to fix the flaws that kept people away from them. Same goes for the Land Rovers. People buying these new dont want to keep having to take them in to be fixed and dont want to live with what older rover owners consider part of owning them.

[mikerigg]

While I doubt we all could agree on these points, I think there are some truisms worth discussing:

1) Companies make money by satisfying the customer (and this doesn't mean the special niche of "My country is great - I'll buy whatever we make here" people or the "my car has soul/I love to work on it" people, but rather the main-stream, "I want the best product for the money" people)
2) If you don't make a profit, you go (or should go) out of business
3) The Japanese, who learned it from the US after WWII (and then the US promptly forgot the lessons in the 50's), have revolutionized quality control
4) The bean counters, much depised here (and no, I'm an engineer), are only responding to market pressure, looking for the the best way to make a profit (and see #1 and #2 above)
5) Higher volumes of sales mean a company can buy better tooling and better equipment. This doesn't always result in better products - people and designs contribute to that as well, but it certainly helps.

Rumors I've heard, or facts I know to be true:

BMW requires covers for belt buckles and no watches on the production line to prevent scratching the cars; but when they asked the LR employees to stop smoking on the production line, they met stiff resistance. They couldn't get the workers to change (sounds like the lunacy exhibited by some organized labor groups in the US: "oh, let's shoot ourselves in the foot; do whatever we can to screw up the company and the product." See #1 and #2 above).

Reported in BMW car club magazine: BMW dumped so much money into LR that, instead it could have taken a freighter into the North Sea and pushed overboard 300 325i's each day, and it would have cost them less money. I'm guessing that BMW sold LR for both of the above reasons.

My 85 Chevy Corvette was a f**king disaster: every imaginable part that could be replace in fact was replaced. I'd be destitute even today if it had not been under warranty 20 years ago when I owned it. Game over: I will NEVER buy a Chevy, or any variant, again. Still hoping that Chevy goes under. That said, quality overall has gone up substantially in the US over the past 25 years. If any car maker doesn't keep improving, they will die (see #1, #2 and #3 above).

My Disco is largely problem free, a fact I attribute mostly to luck (although I do have a slight oil leak that likely was introduced when they pulled the engine at 20,000 miles for a recall; a shop problem in getting it back together correctly; it went out of warranty soon after, and I'll be damned if I am going to pay big money to have them pull and fix this minor leak). I love driving it, but it certainly doesn't compete well in head-to-head competition with other SUV's (except in off-road capability and cargo capacity). You may ask, "then why'd you buy it?" Actually, I didn't: I won it (although my dad drove LR's for years in the 60's when he did a lot of off-road driving in the southwestern US).

Whatever you think of the LR3 styling, it is more appealing to the average US purchaser of these type of products than the Disco. And from what I've seen, it likely will perform off road as well as, or better, than the Disco. The LR3 puts LR back in close competition with the other makers of competing up-scale SUV's - if the reliability and build quality is there (see #1 and #3 above)

There is a thread in the BMW forums similar to this: the "customer is king," mainstream market crowd (I guess I'm in this group) versus the "I love the vehicle being 'different' and special; don't become mainstream" crowd (see #1 and #4 above).

What customer cares whether the factory closes or not, if the production is transferred elsewhere? The real question from the customer perspective is whether the vehicle is being produced more reliably and more cost effectively.

The real issue for LR now is the tremendous fall-off in SUV sales in the US. That more than anything else may be a determining factor in their future viability. Here's hoping that they engineer a hybrid soon.

[Badger1]

I have owned Ford's , Gm's, and some Japanese makes over the years, and have experianced reliability problems with ALL! The 97D1 and 2000 D2 that my wife and I own now have performed flawlessly, going to the shop for only basic maintainance(do my own work on the 97), and repairs for self-inflicted damage . I have also owned an 89RRC and despite the problems that boil down to the previous two owners doing NO maintainance once the warranty expired, it was still a pleasent experiance owning it. I can't say that about the General Motors vehicles and Ford's that I have owned . Issues ranging from fit and finish(both), vehicles just dying on the road(both), head gasket problems(GM), extreme carbon build up, so much so that the car's gas mileage dropped by 50%(Ford), the wonderful plume of blue smoke on start up and excellaration(Ford), need I go on? Trust me I could! Quality isn't job number one with those companies, just overpaying their workers for nothing! Needless to say the few issues I have had with my LR's pail in comparison!

In the future I will be purchasing more LR's, as I use them for my everyday vehicle, not just for FUN... can't say I will ever buy another blue oval badged Ford or GM.

Just my .02 cents

[roverX]

1 - how the hell did I miss this thread?
2 - welcome mikerigg.
3 - well, nothing really. Just a good thread.

[Discrover]

Well,

I didn't read the whole entire thread, but most of it and here is my 0.02 cents for what it is worth.

My first car was a Ford Pinto which I had and drove for all of about 2 months when I was 14yrs old. I worked a summer roofing houses and bought a 1978 Trans Am at the end of summer with my savings...and sold the Pinto (thank god)

I truly loved the Trans Am and still wished I had it...the car had soul....the pinto did not but wasn't built too.

I was then sold on GM even though my father who is a rancher has never owned anything but Ford trucks...diesels since 1984.

I have owned a 1967 Chevy short narrow bed truck(soul)
owned a 1968 Chevy Long wide bed pick up(soul)

Then I bought a new 1994 GM Tahoe/blazer sport 2 door edition(no soul) and the same year my company was doing very well I bought a new 1994 Land Rover Disco just because I liked the way the trucks looked and it had more prestige than the chevy...that was about as much thought as I put into it at the time until I drove the Disco and discovered it's soul.

I drove the Tahoe 90% of the time and the Land Rover when going out of town etc....the Tahoe was my work truck.

In 1997 I traded the Tahoe Sport in on a new 1997 full size 4 door Black GMC Yukon SE....what a total piece of junk that truck was and again (no soul)

Through all my trades and even after getting rid of all my GM trucks to this day I still have the 1994 Discovery SE7 that I bought new. I have kept the vehicle for the simple fact is it does have soul. I don't mind paying the extra for parts for this simple reason...and I have owned a Porsche 911 turbo and also a Porsche 914. They are not a dime a dozen vehicles....they are not cookie cutter molds like any Jap or US Rig accept for maybe the old Jap FJ40 and 60 Land Cruisers which do have soul.

I don't mind paying the higher money for parts because of that fact. I do like finding good discounted prices on parts and that is why I visit great forums like this and why I created my own Land Rover site is purely a passion for the vehicle, which I had none about my any of my GM trucks, because I could pull up to any red light and look around and a ton of other Tahoe's just like mine where setting next to me ( their a dime a dozen)

I like and enjoy being differant...and also enjoy the passion of owning a vehicle that most owners have a passion and camaraderie about...On rare occasions when I do see another Land Rover that is on equivalent of mine it reminds me of my old Harley Davidson days when I built my own 1969 XLCH Chopper which had a 3" rake on the front end and 17" Ape Hangers. Anytime I was meeting another Harley on the road we would wave at each other and give that little grin of yea we get it and the rest of the Suburbanite morons driving their Ford Explorers and keeping up with the Jone's don't.

If I saw another custom Hawg out on the road I would often speed up to get a look at it...remember this was in the early 90's before the West and East Coast Choppers were a big fad on the Discovery Channel.

Even though I no longer own a Harley I still get the same feelings and feel the same comradery when meeting another Land Rover on the road. Especially if it is an older one..because I know it has to be someone with a passion like mine to still be driving the truck or someone who has just found the passion and acquired the rig.

Just like my Porsche, Land Rover have a multitude of mechanical problems and parts can break the bank...that is something we all know for a fact. Another reason these Enthusiast sites have grown so well and a reason I have just created my own, people are searching for knowledge and cheaper parts for their trucks,including myself.

Ford has a very long history of producing vehicles...and I can't on one hand think of more than maybe one (OLD first edition Broncos) that truly are no cookie cutter trucks...they all appeal to the masses...I myself am not the masses. I get it...I don't have a follow the clan mentality I am an individual that has the aptitude to pay and sacrifice to drive something different. A vehicle with soul.

My attitude though is the downward spiral of Land Rover though I will fully admit that as I have only owned one. Like a Harley it is a vehicle with soul and the Disco I plan of keeping for the rest of my life. I bought one the first year Discovery came out and I don't plan on ever needing or buying another one.....and with the introduction of the new LR3 it just isn't a truck it is just another cookie cutter model to appeal to the heard of sheep...oops I mean the masses, but we all know the masses and market share is what keeps a car company going. Designing and releasing a new model every 2 yrs hoping all your previous customers will trade in and up for your new version 2.0 or 3.0.

That ideology has never appealed to me in a vehicle that I feel has soul. I don't need a new version as the version I have is perfect because it has soul and it came with it when I bought it and the soul of a newer version won't be any better than the soul of my version 1.0 as matter fact I would argue that the vehicle looses some soul with every new version and newer release and now with the LR3 it has lost all it's soul and the vehicles soul was traded to the devil for the bottom line.

Same goes with Hummer since GM bought them....their is only one Hummer A1 Alfa or Humvee the version 2.0 and now the jeep look alike 3.0 version are nothing more than soulless generic 2 yr disposable vehicles built to appeal to the ignorant masses of sheep...(I mean people)that actually have no idea of the true history of the vehicle. They just buy one to think they look cool pulling up at the Mall in it, but if you ask them what company made the original Hummer they haven't a clue...they just feel like it looks cool when they come out of the mall and put their Ambercrombie bags in it, and will be looking for the next cool thing to trade their Hummer in on in two or three years.

These vehicles are like generic disposable lighters and it is sad to say that Land Rover is now headed now this exact same path....but it doesn't bother me because I still have mine and it will last me forever unless I wreck it. I don't need a new one because the character of my 1994 Discovery I SE7 grows with every mile and every year it sets in my drive way. It is paid for and I plan on instead of spending $600-$800 a month in payments instead investing that money into my D1.

[roverX]

Nicely said.

[me.guevara]

Damn! Hear, hear!

[jhmover]

Ford Pinto = The Original Ford Exploder

[Discrover]

Originally Posted by jhmover

Ford Pinto = The Original Ford Exploder

OH man was it embarrising to drive that car

[Discrover]

Thanks guys....if anyone actually read through that entire book I posted this is basically it in a nutshell.

I will take a Zippo over a plastic desposable any day. There is nothing wrong with your purple see through plastic disposable 7-Eleven lighter it will do the same job as my Zippo, but I will still be polishing, caring for and refilling my Zippo with fluid long after your your disposable runs it's course.

Plus a Zippo has character and Soul

That is important to me...if you don't see the value in that statement than you should not own a Land Rover.

[DallasRover]

It was funny yesterday, at the State Fair of Texas, the Texas Rovers club does a display each year in the Classic Car Corral. The Auto Show, etc. is huge here as it is a most fairs, with all the major companys on display. At some point during the afternoon I noticed a rep from Ford, I assume he was a rep from their display, as he had his Ford gear on. Anyhow, he was walking back and forth along the fence looking at all of the Rovers. He must have spent 30-45 minutes doing this, and never that I saw spoke to anyone from the group. Just thought it was kind of funny, maybe Ford's slogan for their Land Rover Division can be "On The Outside Looking In"..........