NYTimes:A Mechanic’s Laptop Makes Manuals All but Obsolete

[Adam in NYC USA]

Laptops and Indy mechanics meet:

The New York Times

January 28, 2007
Technology
A Mechanic’s Laptop Makes Manuals All but Obsolete
By SCOTT STURGIS

WHEN Donny Seyfer started fixing cars a couple of decades ago, a mechanic could still count on his internal database — a well-developed blend of observation, experience and instinct — to diagnose most breakdowns. The worn-out brushes in a dead starter or a short circuit in a sparkless ignition distributor would eventually be revealed to a mechanic who carefully dug through the clues.

But as carburetors became extinct and electrical systems evolved from bundles of color-coded wires to inscrutable digital networks, the ability to determine where faults lay demanded new skills and savvy. No longer would basic tools like a test light and a compression gauge be enough.

To make a living fixing the new generation of computer-controlled cars, a general practitioner like Mr. Seyfer, 43, had to become something of a technical wizard, reaching for a laptop — not a wrench — when a customer drove in with problems.

He has also become a booster of technology, as a teacher of shop technicians and as education director of the Automotive Service Association. An early adopter who dug into the changes sweeping auto technology in the ’80s and never looked back, Mr. Seyfer (pronounced SIGH-fer) manages the computer systems at his family’s repair shop in Wheat Ridge, Colo., a western suburb of Denver. He also spreads the word as the co-host of a local radio show, taking questions from owners baffled by misbehaving vehicles.

That does not mean he has all the answers. In a recent struggle, Mr. Seyfer matched wits with the onboard computer of a 2006 Lincoln Zephyr.

When the car was parked with its doors locked, the sunroof would start opening and closing. Beyond solving the obvious problem, Mr. Seyfer wanted to complete the repair by clearing the fault message, or trouble code, recorded in the car’s computer and turning off the check-engine light. He researched a repair Web site operated by the Ford Motor Company. He checked independent information services used by mechanics like Alldata, Identifix and the International Automotive Technician’s Network; none answered the question.

As it turned out, the solution was tucked away in his memory. “I remembered a similar model that you had to tell the computer whether it was front-wheel drive or all-wheel drive,” Mr. Seyfer said. “I punched in that information, and it cleared the codes.”

The sources of repair information that today’s mechanics must be familiar with — diagnostic codes, Web-based data-sharing, online forums — raise the question of how an independent shop, working on many brands of vehicles, can possibly keep up with the technology.

As information goes from printed repair manuals to the Web, are manufacturers sharing the information the way they should? More important, who is going to fix that sophisticated new Mercedes-Benz 10 years from now, when the factory warranty has expired?

Patricia Serratore, group vice president for industry relations for the National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence, said that the future should be bright for independent shops.

She said there had always been a gap between the introduction of new technology and getting repair information to mechanics.

“Years ago, when disc brakes came out, when fuel injection came out, there was the same kind of lag,” Ms. Serratore said.

Mr. Seyfer told a similar story. He started his career in 1983, just as devices like computer-controlled carburetors arrived. “It was doom and gloom. ‘Independent shops aren’t going to be able to fix anything.’ ”

Although he said he found the new technology “kind of fun,” he also discovered that getting the information to fix a car could be a problem because it was no longer covered by a comprehensive factory shop manual. It is now on a manufacturer’s Web site, so access becomes more critical and more dependent on the manufacturer.

Manufacturers charge independent shops for access to their Web sites. Charles Territo, director of communications for the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, an industry trade group, said that most automakers made access for a 24-hour period available for about $25. Subscriptions are also available for longer use.

While the information is not free, Mr. Seyfer does not begrudge the automakers the money. He said he would rather have thorough and accurate information available on the automaker sites, rather than encounter a reluctance on the part of the manufacturers to provide repair information because they are losing money.

Mr. Territo said manufacturers wanted independent shops to have access to the information as well.

“Seventy to 80 percent of post-warranty repairs are performed by independent repairers,” Mr. Territo said.

It does add to the mechanics’ overhead. Mike Brewster, owner of Gil’s Garage in Burnt Hills, N.Y., pays subscription fees for independent services like Alldata, Mitchell’s and Identifix; such services typically cost $150 a month. Mr. Brewster will buy 24-hour access to a manufacturer’s site only as needed.

“It’s just a part of the cost of doing business,” Mr. Brewster said. “But having current information available is such a pleasure.”

Mr. Seyfer said he barely spent $100 a month for the few times he buys access to automakers’ sites. He also subscribes to Alldata and Identifix.

In New Jersey, a right-to-repair act began working its way through the state Legislature last year. The bill would set up a state agency and require manufacturers to provide diagnostic, service and repair information free to vehicle owners and repair facilities.

The Automotive Service Association opposes passage of this bill, which the organization said would jeopardize relations between the association and automakers and limit the information available to what the government requires. The bill remains in the Legislature.

One free service is from the National Automotive Service Task Force, a clearinghouse that provides help on specific repair issues to independent mechanics. Starting in 2000 and modeled on a pilot program in Arizona, the task force’s members include independent mechanics, information providers and virtually every automobile manufacturer producing cars for the North American market.

While Mr. Seyfer was not able to resolve the problem he had with the Lincoln sunroof when he posted an inquiry on the task force site, he said information was easy to get most of the time.

“A tech gets in trouble, gets angry because he can’t fix the car and submits a complaint,” Mr. Seyfer said, adding that the manufacturer usually calls the next day and tells the technician where to find the solution.

Mr. Brewster knows all about keeping up with technology. He entered Chrysler’s training program after high school in the late 1970s. Within four years, onboard computers made much of what he knew obsolete.

But after almost 30 years in the business, he said getting information from manufacturers had actually gotten easier.

“We struggled a lot more in the early ’80s trying to get current information than I believe we do today,” Mr. Brewster said.

Mr. Seyfer said that as the technology evolved, so had the skills of aspiring repair technicians. “The trend toward students who are adept at computers, math and reading has been going on for a number of years,” he said. His technicians attend traning and online classes, too.

And the printed shop manual? Ancient history. “Manuals? I think they’re still available,” Mr. Brewster said. ”But I don’t know any shop that actually utilizes them.”

Mr. Seyfer said his shop of eight employees had nine computers around the repair area for the technicians to use. Mr. Seyfer and Mr. Brewster keep libraries of manuals for repairing older cars.

“Who would have thought you could use a laptop as a diagnostic tool?” he said. “Now it’s the first thing we whip out.”


Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company

[Rovin4life]

depending on the dealershiip if they the dealership moves over to a paperless system where as the techs get their work assigned them by a computer and they type their stories in it makes it easier since most are already hooked up to the internet to use what you have and expand on it.


just depends on how cheap the dealership is.

but our diagniostic machines arent hooked up to the internet.

to many problems that can add up quickly with it.


its customary to have at least one computer for at least two techs no more then three.

some guys do some dont. its just preference and how much they like to play around on the computer when they arent working.

[Muddy Oval]

People who don't have 'old skool' diagnostic experience and rely only on computers and codes usually have a very hard time with things. Sometimes you still have to think and troubleshoot using your brain. What's the code for a flat tyre? Reliance on computers and codes is making for a society of part swappers.

[Dugaboy]

Originally Posted by Muddy Oval

People who don't have 'old skool' diagnostic experience and rely only on computers and codes usually have a very hard time with things. Sometimes you still have to think and troubleshoot using your brain. What's the code for a flat tyre? Reliance on computers and codes is making for a society of part swappers.

Flat tire( low tire)--01/02/03/05/05/06/07/08

on an Airbus Aircraft and most modern a/c and inluding high end vehicals down the road and some now on the road with built in air,(my Infinity has it,a low tire indicator on the dash)will know when a tire is flat.
Technology from Aircraft,Space vehicals, war vehicals eventualy filters down to the auto industry, they(auto ind) have a stake in military and aviation for just this reason -Technology-Ford builds the Abrams (or has a stake in it)
Saab, Gm, all involved in the technology.

I fix heavy jets for a living and the technology is unbelievable,
i can troubleshoot and flush a toilet from the cockpit using onbard maintenance computers,the aircraft puts out a post flt report of all snags encountered during flt, granted some are spurious but most are valid.
give it time, your car will do the same, you look for codes now, eventualy it will print out on paper or your onboard maintenance screen and give you the most likely area or part to change first.
its all here already.

Last word---never give up on hands on 'old skool' diagnostic experience you still have to think and troubleshoot using your brain.

jim

[KevinNY]

Which all leads back to why series rigs are cool.

[Adam in NYC USA]

Originally Posted by Muddy Oval

People who don't have 'old skool' diagnostic experience and rely only on computers and codes usually have a very hard time with things. Sometimes you still have to think and troubleshoot using your brain. What's the code for a flat tyre? Reliance on computers and codes is making for a society of part swappers.

Hello again from Adam.

I posted that article to show how much things have changed with automotive repair and how the industry of indy diagnosis and troubleshooting is evolving.

Muddy Oval, in my opinion, that was a arrogant opinion. If you dont have any expierence and dont know what you are doing, what do common sense people do? They find out what they have to do. Modern manufacturing has lead to those who part swap, but if the person wants to know why and most importantly wants to get it fixed economically, an education is the only way to go.

Your lack in faith in your fellow humans saddens me. Then why are we here?
One reason I posted that article was that we are indirectly mentioned there.

The closest things have I seen that is similar to modern auto repair is modern medicine and antique tube radio repair.

They both require you to have a basic and sound foundation of knowledge.

You can do parts swapping on a tube radio but sometimes it is not the tube but the old capacitors giving up the magic smoke. It helps to understand how electronics works to repair a tube radio.

As for medicine, you rely on objective and subjective evidence to discover what is wrong. It does not help that patients lie to to their nurses / doctors/ paramedics for their own idiotic reasons.

Did you know that sudden pain at ones navel is one sign of appendicitis? Or that stabbing pain in back along with a tearing pain in your chest means your having a dissecting aortic anuerym? Or the first sign of a heart attack is not chestpain but denial?

Knowledge and wisdom is key/ bad attitudes wont help.

Adam

[Dugaboy]

Originally Posted by Muddy Oval

People who don't have 'old skool' diagnostic experience and rely only on computers and codes usually have a very hard time with things. Sometimes you still have to think and troubleshoot using your brain. What's the code for a flat tyre? Reliance on computers and codes is making for a society of part swappers.

Adam
I think you have to much time on your hands.
How did you come up with a Physco Analasis of M.O. with the statement above.
If you give a mechanic a troubleshooting computer and he has minimal mechanical knowledge of the machine hes fixing,the computer gives the most logical failure first then the next and so on.(if i had a scanner i could show you the tree.)so thats what an inexperienced mech does, changes the first part on the list.(parts changer) but with experience of the machine and previous knowledge they all come together to make an cost efective repair.

jim

[Muddy Oval]

Adam- you couldn't be farther from the truth. When your Disco pops a misfire code but it won't stay running, what do you do? What will your computer do? Put a plug wire on it... then try again... then a plug... then try again...
If one understands the basic fundamentals of what makes an engine work, you can use that theory in addition to scientific method to decide the course of action. If you pull a spark plug and it's grainy and gray, what will the computer tell you? Can your computer run a compression test- will it tell you when to do one? Computers are but one tool in the tool box- and really not more important than a simple volt/phm meter.
Educate yourself of what makes it tick- don't rely on the laptop. Can the laptop tell you what the fluid smells like when it's bad? geez- God forbid there's a truck with no codes and doesnt run well. Whetever will you do?
We have a D90 in the shop now with a slipped liner- no codes on the OBD. Happens all the time. What about when the MAF fails and it tells you "improper gear ratio, 3rd gear" and that's it? new transmission? That's what the dealer told a guy with a P38 two weeks ago and quoted $7K. I put a used MAF on it just to see- fixed it, $58 out the door.
See ya on the computer!

[Adam in NYC USA]

From DugaboyAdam
I think you have to much time on your hands.

Don't assume everyone here has expierence with just one thing. Besides being an EMT, I used to do User Interface Engineering , play with Ham Radio, and build computers. I own an Altair 8800 {try buying that}and used to program in octal and hexidecimal. You be surprised who writes here.

How did you come up with a Physco Analasis of M.O. with the statement above.
If you give a mechanic a troubleshooting computer and he has minimal mechanical knowledge of the machine hes fixing,the computer gives the most logical failure first then the next and so on.(if i had a scanner i could show you the tree.

That would be true only with a simple diagnostic tool. One of the projects one of my friends was doing was a full diagnostic system for a landrail locomotive. It used AI and applied huristics. They took the applied learning trees from an expierenced repair engineer and applied it into their repair systems.

If the locomotive throws a code awhile in operation, it uploads the problem back to the factory via satelite and all data from the prior 300 hours. Dying sensors can be diagnosed and flagged for replacement at the closest depot at end of the line.

The system is be evaluated for the Armys repair depot.


jim

[Muddy Oval]

Adam- you understimate others more than you think you have been underestimated. I also am an EMT/Mt Rescue qualified, certified instructor for FEMA CERT, certified off-road driving instructor- I used to be a communications engineer for USAF Spec Ops using radio, computer and other systems- while integrating them writing software in several languages, mostly sub-routininng them in assembly. I know computers- you think an altair is tough? LOL!
Tell me again how you think you know the business of repairing Land Rovers and how all a tech needs is a laptop and a scanner. I do this stuff every day and a large perentage of the Rovers we see now are misdiagnosed ones that get shipped in from long distances where someone looked at codes and started swapping or condemning expensive parts without results.
I think ANY tech- dealer or indy- will say there's a helluva lot more to fixing something than plugging in and being told what to do. Your analogy of the train thing isn't relevant. A Range Rover doesn't have that-

[Dugaboy]

Hey Adam

I assume nothing and im not typing with any attitude or pissing contest and im happy you know more than one thing and probably more than me about locomotives.
i speak from experience when i say Lap top Trouble shooting and diagnostics is not all its cracked up to be.
In the End the human experience decides whats spurious and whats not.


If the locomotive throws a code awhile in operation, it uploads the problem back to the factory via satelite and all data from the prior 300 hours. Dying sensors can be diagnosed and flagged for replacement at the closest depot at end of the line.

The system is be evaluated for the Armys repair depot.

Old news
The aviation industry has been using ACARS since 89.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACARS

Cheers and thanks for doing the job you do.

Jim

[Adam in NYC USA]

Okay, I will close this thread since I am unable to convey my point of view and do not want this to turn into a pissing match.