Reluctantly: Buyers beware! KVT and RoverSolutions.com

[Hank]

I'm kinda split 50/50 on this. For some reason, I don't think the "real" story has hit the fan yet. Kyle has always been a stand-up guy. He has always been upfront, and never "beat around the bush". For that, he made many enemy's, but, If you ever go back and look over what Kyle was trying to say, he really did make sense.

Kyle has others views as to what a rover should look like and function. His views follow along the same lines as John Lee and Ho. Not everyone is going to agree with Kyle, John, or Ho on this, and not everyone is going to understand why they do what they do. Yet, for these views, they sometimes get there asses wiped on these BB's. In return, they whip us back and it leaves a bad taste in our mouth.

Kyle has made people mad, and for that they don't "like" him. So, I think this starts up this whole "What a jerk Kyle is" type thread.

With that said, I don't know whats up, but I think it really stinks! Kyle had something to offer that a lot of people liked. Kyle knows a LR in and out. Kyle has always been up-front and tells you like it is, which is a "lost trade" in the market today. Whether he's out of cash, unable to work, or whatever, I really hope he pulls through it.

Thats not to say what he is doing is not wrong. But, I don't think anyone know the whole story. I mean, why are these people not involving the cops/feds/whatever? Why are these people not talking more aggressive measures? I don't think these people are out of their money, their just receiving some shit service, and even shittier customer service.

[roverX]

You make some good points there Dan. Kyle does know his stuff. He, John, and Ho have always had great advice but, like you said, not everyone has agreed with them on how a rover should function. I like their rover ideas. Yes, sometimes their delivery sucks, but it is what it is. I think if he said "Hey look guys, it's personal and I'm having a hard time right now," I think people will be more understanding. But until he takes care of his personal business, he needs to stop his rover dealings. I, for one, hopes he gets back on his feet, b/c he does give stellar advice.

[drg]

Originally Posted by Hank

Kyle has made people mad, and for that they don't "like" him. So, I think this starts up this whole "What a jerk Kyle is" type thread.

Hank, I had no idea that Kyle was a jerk before I did business with him. In fact, when I did my due dilligence search on him before buying (I found the RoverSolutions.com site first, then DWeb), my searches on "KVT" and "rack" always showed people happy with what they got.

Maybe there are a few of us who got there the way you described, but for me and several others I've talked to, getting mad was a result of his behavior, not the cause for the dispute. It's only after he started disappearing on me that I went back and saw what an ass he's been to DWeb people who disagree with him.

A lot of non-customers have joined in to give their two cents, but every thread about this that I've seen was started by someone who was owed something by him (a different someone in every case, and this is the only thread I have started myself).

He has not always been a stand-up guy. He told the BBB, for instance, that I was taken care of, even though he had not contacted me and had not sent me what I was owed. Not to mention telling me (a stranger at the time) that he would finish my rack 4 weeks after my down payment, when it must have been abundantly clear that that wouldn't happen.

Thats not to say what he is doing is not wrong. But, I don't think anyone know the whole story.

You're right that we don't know the whole story, but that's part of the problem. I told him several times that I could stand waiting if he would tell me how long I have to wait, but wouldn't stand for him just disappearing. Yet, to this date I've received no communication from him since he told me my rack was ready and how much the last payment was.

You said that you don't think anyone's out money, they just have to wait longer. There are people who've been paid up for over a year, and he won't even talk to them. It doesn't matter if he thinks in his head that he'll 'eventually' deliver something. Nobody else believes it, and a court wouldn't believe it either.

In my case, for instance, all he'd have to do is send me the 8 mounting brackets. These are the same brackets that he uses on all of his racks... he should be swimming in them. But he neither sent them to me, nor sent me any kind of message saying they were coming. If he can't do something as easy as throw 8 brackets in a box and mail them out to one of the most vocal complainers, I can't see how we should assume he's doing anything else.

As far as the suggestion that we're not being 'aggressive' enough... that's a little offensive. Just a little, and I know you didn't mean it that way, but: it has been discussed, at length, that it would cost at least as much to chase him down as the money we are out. And that's assuming he has the money to pay us back. Since he's not giving any details, the general consensus seems to be that there's probably no money to go after in the first place. So what useful step should we take?

I've taken the only one that's sane for me: I've decided it's not worth it to worry too much more about getting what he owes me. But the flip side of that is making sure that other people know that doing business with him was a wholly unpleasant and unprofitable decision, and that I'm not the only one.


Just one last bit, though, that isn't related to Kyle's business problems, but to what you said about the people who dislike Kyle, John, and Ho. Let me give you a different opinion about why that is.

There's no question that they work hard to try to figure out the "right" way to build a Rover, and the "right" way to off-road. One look at the EE web site shows that John and Ho put a lot of effort into research. And Kyle is unquestionably a very skilled designer and fabricator (not that I'm happy with the workmanship on the rack he sent me, but the design is good and I'll assume that that's the exception rather than the rule).

The problem is that they don't know the difference between the opinions they form and God-given truth. They've become the kind of people for whom you either agree with what they say, or they tell everyone you're an idiot.

Every hobby has those people. Usually they know what they're talking about most of the time, because those are the people who put the most work into things, and they get a lot done. But sometimes they're wrong or shortsighted, and usually there's more than one way to do something. These kinds of people can't recognize when they're wrong or when there may be a different answer that works for someone else, and they so jealously guard their 'rightness' that they ridicule anyone who disagrees.

Those kind of people will either bother you or they won't. They bug the hell out of me.


Apologies for the rant, but having gotten that out of the way, I do believe I can probably move on now.

[DiscoTex]

Originally Posted by drg

Apologies for the rant, but having gotten that out of the way, I do believe I can probably move on now.

Why apologize? It's the honest to god truth. You know that if it was any other fabricator making things for a bigger audience (say, the Toyota, Chevy, or Jeep crowd), he would have been burned at the stake based on his customer service alone.

Originally Posted by Hank

Yet, for these views, they sometimes get there asses wiped on these BB's. In return, they whip us back and it leaves a bad taste in our mouth.

Yeah, it's one thing to "whip us" with a decent rebuttal, but it' another thing to start banning members left and right and threaten to shut down the whole BB just because members either don't agree with them, or start talking negatively about them three.

KVT's poor customer service has been an issue for a long, long time. Hell, search through the old DWeb BB and you'll find threads about the same issue.

Maybe y'all should start a thread about this on PBB. By the time they're done, there will be a new term for getting ripped off: getting "Van Tassled".

Edit: I'm an idiot. There IS a thread about him at Pirate arleady.

[RageRover]

Wow.. that was a lot said.

[Beachrover]

I guess that I'm so old that I don't understand the concern with getting banned from a damned Website. I mean, there are a lot of avenues to gain information on any topic on the internet, they do not have an exclusivity on Rover information. Honestly, I couldn't care less if they banned me. I have not posted an opinion on Dweb because I did not buy anything from him and wouldn't have bought anything from him because of his shitty attitude toward the members of his own website. To me, if he was going to be that arrogant in his post what would lead anyone to think that he would be anything other than that in his business dealings. As far as it costing more to attempt to collect than what you are out, a collective group effort by ALL of the people that he has ripped off would actually be quite affordable. I'd be willing to bet that if you contacted everyone that has posted in those 2 threads that he still owes product to, all would be willing to chip in $100.00 bucks or so just as a matter of principle or ethics. This would give you somewhere around $1,000.00 or more if my math is correct. You can then file liens against him and hope to eventually get a personal judgement against any and all personal assests. If anything it would make day to day life more difficult and if it were me, I would get some sense of satisfaction from that even if I didn't get my money or my product. If that didn't work, a nice road trip by his house and a little face to face time would be the next order of business.