hey yall, have any of you tried or know of any modifications to put in a discovery series II engine into a discovery series I? is it even possible? also whats a good way to get 20-30 hp to make the series I engine 200+ hp?
Whats the point? Even if you had a spare series II engine lying around there would be very little to be gained by swapping over (except some headaches). If you are looking for added horsepower, that costs $$$$, depending on how far you want to go. The cheapest way to get around 100hp at the wheels, is to fit nitrous oxide, which is then available on demand (great for traffic light grand prix's). however, if you are only seeking 20-30hp you will need to do some tweaking. You could start by getting a chip upgrade (you would need some sort of an upgrade if you were to fit nitrous), headers, better ignition leads & perhaps coil/s. Forget about using fuel/octane additives, as these will only cost you money for no gain. You could also change your air filter, for that extra 1hp that I keep hearing about on different forums.
Hope this helps.
__________________ No hand signals, driver playing with his transfer Knob.
One of my friends has a 4.6 in his 130, another has just upgraded his RR from 4.0 to 4.6 and I am thinking of doing the same with one of my Discos when the engine gets tired however unless you upgrade the chip in the ECU its not going to make much difference
__________________ Gordon T. Smith Middle East Land Rover Nutter
All D1's can fit the 4.6 block. It's just a matter of swapping stuff over. It's not a big deal really. But, unless you can get a heck of a deal on a 4.6, it's not worth it. You can build a 3.9/4.0 for less money, and have more HP. Just as long as the cylinder walls are in good shape....
I have a 4.6L short block out of a 2003 D2, 7k miles, and a set of 4.6 heads, 7500 miles, that can be had.....
Really, all you would need to do it swap over all the componets from the 4.0 (intake, brackets, mounts, etc...)to the 4.6 block. Without problems, and the right tools, you can have it done in a day/day and a half.
Still, just throw a cam, lifters, headers, high flow cats, flowmaster, and maybe a new HP chip, and you have the power equel to the 4.6, for a lot less money/time. And if you really want to get creative, remove the heads, have them shaved, ported, and pollished. I say 'maybe' on the HP chip, because there seems to be so many stories on power gains. Some really feel the difference, some feel no change....But, I have never installed a chip on a Land Rover, so I'm talking from my a** on that.
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Yes, you have a 4.0 GEMS engine (SAGEM ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM)
RPi engineering has been pretty successful with there chips (you have to do 2 chips, one is for fuel injector control, the other is for timing control) but you need to give them YOUR ECU, not one your body gave you, or one that came from the junkyard. It has to be done by them, they remove all the factory lockout BS and add their own scramble package. It costs pretty close to 700GBP ($1400 US) and they claims of 10-15% BHP increase, midrange torque increases, and fuel efficiency improvements, have been substantiated.
FWIW, if you go to a 4.6 engine from a P38 RR, pre 1999 1/2, it will also be Gems. If you go for an S2 Disco, or 4.6 from a post 1999 1/2 RR, it will be Bosch engine management. There are sensor differences, but thats about all. Don't even think of changing a Gems Car to Bosch (or vise versa, not that anyone would want to) as it would basically come down to rewiring just about the whole car. On a '97 with possibly 100k miles by now, it's a tossup which is the better route; changing the engine out to low miles 4.6, and the necessary ECU change for thecapacity increase, or rechipping your 4.0. Simply rechipping the 4.0, without some rebuilding to the valve train (cam, chain, lifters, regrinding & lapping the valves) will be a wasted effort. Doing both, and you won't care you don't have a 4.6.
The biggest improvement anyone can make to a Rover engine, is the least cost, but very labor intensive job of port matching your intake and exhaust.
You can drop in a 4.6 either GEMS or otherwise, but you will need a computer system a lot more sophisticated to piggyback your ECU than a couple of chips (Motec preferably), or, you can stroke your 4 litre out to 5.2 (4.7-4.8L is best), if you wish, however, either whichway, you are going to be up for big bucks.
__________________ No hand signals, driver playing with his transfer Knob.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco
You can drop in a 4.6 either GEMS or otherwise, but you will need a computer system a lot more sophisticated to piggyback your ECU than a couple of chips (Motec preferably), or,
Disco, Explain what you mean by 'need to piggyback'. I have seen very little Motec use in the US. 5 or 6 years ago, It was generally considered a good (at least the M8) computer to replace Chevy (GM) systems, and I do know of a Rover application, but no one I know thouight they got any gain from it (except that the guy with the Rover needed a whole system and the Motec was cheaper) In all cases I know, it was used in place of, and not piggybacked.
As to GEMS 4.0 to GEMS 4.6 upgrade, It isn't even necessary to rechip the old GEMS computer, except that nothing will be gained. ONLY the fuel chip Has to be changed, but the timing maps SHOULD be changed. NO other ECU, piggybacked or otherwise is necessary.
HOLDEN may have improved with MOTEC, but SAGEM is far faster, adaptable, and (matter of opinion here) efficient. I always figured ROVER, by all their security "enhancements" were the only reason GEMS got a bad name, in the US. Outside of the US, I believe the securities, and lockouts are not used.
If it was my truck, and I was looking to upgrade from the 4.0 Gems to something else (I hope my friends would at least ask me why, I can't think of too many reasons in a 5000 lb truck) presumably a 4.6, I'd go the whole way and transplant the BOSCH loom and ECU.
As I run Motec in both my Discovery's I can assure you that they do allow a number of advantages with regards to fuel and ignition mapping, along with ignition control. By 'piggyback' I mean that the Motec takes over the major role of the OEM ECU, but does not control auxillary sensors such as ABS, SRS etc, although I have done away with the air flow sensor, as this is controlled by Motec also. Some of the other advantages of installing Motec is that with a laptop you can access and change characteristics in engine setup, tuning diagnostics, utilities etc, which I found to be an enormously useful and essential tool when fitted to my supercharged disco. When I put together my other discovery (91) with a 4.6, I originally decided to do it cheaper and fitted a Perfect Power engine management computer, well you know what they say "You only get what you pay for" so, as it had limitations, it had to go, and, I fitted a Motec to that also (no more hassles). To cut a long story short, one of my friends fitted a 4.6 to his 91 discovery, had a chip upgrade, and no end of trouble. By the time he managed to get it right, with lots of frustration and money, he wished he had done it the right way from the beginning.
BTW, you are correct that outside the US the securities and lockouts are not used.
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Only complaint I have heard re Motec by US users, was that it didn't work, out of the box, and 'customer' support' couldn't help via email. It meant staying up all night so they could phone the company, speak to a live voice, and VOILA, it worked. Guess it must be that the instructions were writen in Austrailian, and they only spoke American.
I didn't think the engine ECU handles ABS info, that's another wizbox, no?
I' d like to hear more about how you managed to rid yourself of the MAF. Which model Motec are you using? M800?
Whose chips did your friend use that gave the headaches? I have heard nothing but good about RPI, except, of coarse, the price.
Last edited by TerryS : 02-15-2005 at 06:10 AM.
Reason: Spelling, as Usual
Both my units are M48 Pro's. Here's how it works. air flow is controlled by the motec, via manifold pressure/vacuum, taking into account throttle position, rpm's and road speed.
FWIW, most of the Indy champ cars run Motec.
If you would like, I can attach photos of my setup.
__________________ No hand signals, driver playing with his transfer Knob.
I would love to have a td5 engine in the disco, but unfortunately i do not think that i will be able to put a diesel engine in the disco, i heard that they dont allow the importation of diesels to the US anymore or something to that matter, besides that would be a hard to find enging here in the US. if there are anyways to get around it LEGALLY im all ears.
I would love to have a td5 engine in the disco, but unfortunately i do not think that i will be able to put a diesel engine in the disco, i heard that they dont allow the importation of diesels to the US anymore or something to that matter, besides that would be a hard to find engine here in the US. if there are anyways to get around it LEGALLY im all ears.
somewhere in here is the answer to my question I am sure.
what would be the most cost effective engine swap/ upgrade to make my DISCO a better tow vehicle as I am now using it as a daily work truck towing 2.5 TONNE M-F
I have a 3.9L V8i Manual ( never had a problem with the box thanks auto owners) but now fuel consumption is 27L /100klm and the CLUTCH is buggered due to riding it on hills while I get the 5-6 thou RPM needed to take off on a hill in sydney's peak hour traffic. if staying petrol I will be going dual fuel to help with costs. what are my options gents and is this 4.6L suitable for towing or just a high revving speed freak?
Both my units are M48 Pro's. Here's how it works. air flow is controlled by the motec, via manifold pressure/vacuum, taking into account throttle position, rpm's and road speed.
FWIW, most of the Indy champ cars run Motec.
If you would like, I can attach photos of my setup.
Please do. If you would, please explain why did the Motec swapout? How much was doing each vehicle and if this was for street or dual use.
Adam in Nyc
__________________
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Owner of a 1996 Land Rover Discovery 1 in Beluga Black or the Dirt of the Day.
Where we are going,we don't need roads.
Nothing in education is so astonishing as the amount of ignorance it accumulates in the form of
inert facts.
‘The Education of Henry Adams’ (1907) ch. 25
Not sure if this thread is still active, but its very interesting so im going to bring it back to life!
WRT the Motec. It piggybacks off the ecu & controls airflow... But wont the GEMS eventually compensate for the change?
Im looking for more power right now as well & the engine management seems to be the sticking point...
The powerchip for $390us doesnt look bad when compared to RPI, but will it do everything it needs to?
Also, Disco SuperMod, are you still running the supercharger? They are very anti SC on dweb, citing reliability etc. Did you redo the internals? How much boost?
S.
__________________
1999 Series 1
70k miles
3" RTE, 265's...
I don't know much about the GEMS system, but I imagine that it is only able to compensate for slight increases in fuel and air flow, therefore if a progressively larger increase in horsepower is contemplated, a management system such as Power Chip, Uni Chip, Super Chip etc has to be used. I have heard that the GEMS computer can be reprogrammed to perform similar functions. The type of system you chose, should be selected after you have decided what level of horsepower upgrade you seek, otherwise your putting the cart before the horse IMO. I still have my 95 Discovery supercharged. The 3.9L motor was stroked to 4.7L in 1996 and the supercharger, originally an Eaton bolt on kit that came from Rimmer Engineering, and was fitted in 97. The only problems I found was that it was difficult to intercool it and it produced too much heat, something the engine doesn't enjoy, so I eventually removed it (it's still in a box in my garage), in favour of a Vortech V2. I have been running this system since 1999 and it's extremely reliable, but because of the horsepower the motor produces, I have destroyed two gearboxes.
With regards to the Dweb naysayers, 99.9% have never fitted a supercharger, and the comments they are making, is drawn for hearing about supercharger problems. The majority of these problems were as a result of fitting the Rimmer kit, quite a few ended up on D90's and they suffered I suspect, the consequences of not intercooling, as I have already mentioned. Supercharging is very expensive to set up properly. If you are not prepared to throw lots of money at it, my advice is leave it alone. If your looking for great horsepower increases, especially if your into "Traffic Light Gran Prix" or for overtaking, fit Nitrous. The kits are relatively cheap to purchase and very easy to fit, although the gas can be expensive. I have Nitrous in my 91 Discovery and it takes off faster than the supercharged 95.
__________________ No hand signals, driver playing with his transfer Knob.
Sometimes you have to ask yourself, do you want to convert your LandRover to a powerhouse good only for toying around, or is it practical just to get another vehicle just for that purpose?
In the United States, it is possible to walk into PepBoys, AutoZone and get a crate engine for cheap ($2800-$3500). Just remember you are buying a heavy piece of metal and it does not come with a carry strap.
Still want to use the same tranny or get a new one mated for that larger torque/horsepower? Keep the same tranny okay then, then expect premature life if you are running more power thru it. What about those diffs as well.
Here is some simple advice.
Research what you wanna do and make a preliminary budget. Powerblock.TV usually shows soMe good ones, like the old Trucks! If you are in the States,think about using a domestic crate engine and matched computerised tranny. Decide if you want bottom-torque, or middle band power, or you want a daily driver.
Then you will see what it takes. I was thinking of doing a kit car but New York City is a terrible place to do it.
I am postponing my dream for at least 5 years when my finances clear up and I have my own three-car garage with a lift.
Adam in NYC
__________________
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Owner of a 1996 Land Rover Discovery 1 in Beluga Black or the Dirt of the Day.
Where we are going,we don't need roads.
Nothing in education is so astonishing as the amount of ignorance it accumulates in the form of
inert facts.
‘The Education of Henry Adams’ (1907) ch. 25
Im not looking to turn it into a drag racer or anything, but doenst anyone else find it ridiculous that you cant pass up a hill on the highway, or struggle up that same hill when towing? I just want power on demand... I realize its a heavy truck & I know there is enough power off road, but it gets a lot of on road use too.
That said, I work out of the country for 6 months of the year, so really im only driving half the time. As such, I dont mind higher fuel & maintenance costs.
Im planning on upgrading the diffs to the 30-Spline Toy rear. Not sure yet up front. This will happen before the engine work, so no problems there. Will do some more research on the gearbox, but if I just go for a tuned 4.6 I wouldnt be worried about it.
WRT the supercharger, & im sure you thought of it already, but what about fitting an intercooler from a tdi 200? Ive seen nice aftermarket ones in the magazines... Also, did you lower the CR before bolting on the charger, or just leave it as stock? Ive been over on v8buick.com & have been considering using buick 300 heads. The combustion chamber is larger, so it would reduce the CR, but if a guy had a supercharger on top of that... Whats a garage stored Eaton kit going for these days anyways?
S.
__________________
1999 Series 1
70k miles
3" RTE, 265's...
The Eaton supercharger or any other Roots type SC that sits on top of the engine is not the way to go for a number of reasons.
1. It is difficult to intercool.
2. It is difficult to keep the engine heat from heating up the blower housing.
3. Fitting a custom water to air intercooler underneath it requires you to cut a hole in the hood otherwise the SC won't fit. Alternately, you could fit a water injection system that will do the same job.
4. The Rimmer/Eaton kit does not allow sufficient air/fuel mixture to the rear cylinders. It needs major enginering changes.
5. The Eaton SC will only deliver 5psi boost max. You can run a smaller pulley and speed it up, but this eventually will burn out the bearings.
I see no reason why the intercooler from a 200tdi would not work. BTW,the stock compression ratio is just about perfect.
__________________ No hand signals, driver playing with his transfer Knob.
discovery series I with a series II engine
