Diff Lock vs ARB locker

[TerryS]

Originally Posted by Geobloke

Diff lockers (both centre diff and final drive lockers) are wonderful bits of kit but nothing beats picking the right line over, though or round an obstacle.

No Truer statement was ever spoken.

[p76rangie]

Disco, Maxidrive, McNamaras and ARB lockers are all about the same price when you take into account upgrading axles. McNamaras and Maxidrive are probably slightly better engineered, but I have not heard of too many people breaking ARB lockers. ARB here really stand by their product and will readily address any issues you have. McNamara is basically an a bastard to deal with and he is his own worst enemy. A large number of freinds I go out with have maxidrives and also a large number have ARBs. As Maxidrive are only vacum operated, the freinds with them always seem to have problems with engaging them or getting them to disengage. With the air pressure that run ARBs, they do not appear to suffer from this problem. Many of the top competition trucks like Mike Smith run ARBs. They put their trucks through extreme stuff and do not appear able to break them. So I have twin ARBs on my truck and they were not chosen on price. They were chosen after a comparision over a long period of time of the various lockers in other people's trucks first. I picked what I could determine was the best product for the job. I do run Maxidrive axles though.

Ian

[Geobloke]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

Geobloke, the only part I agree with is that Tyres should be your first purchase.

Well hell at least yer agree with me on one thing!

Right then here we go....

Originally Posted by p76rangie

If you are going into muddy or slippery conditions a diff lock is a must. Wheel spinning will kill a rover diff very quickly.

....I agree in that if you know you are definately heading offroad in search of the really deep claggy mud then difflockers are a worthwhile purchase, however 75% of offroaders don't go anywhere near that sort of mud! For the most part people wheel in conditions where difflockers are not wholey necessary.

Your wheels spinning shouldn't kill a rover diff, what kills diffs (and half shafts) is the sudden change from no (or limited) traction to partial (or full) traction and causes 1 or 2 wheels to suddenly slow (or stop) and you run the risk of snapping a half shaft (or wrecking a diff). Which is more likely with locking diffs anyway because there is nowhere for the torsional stresses to go but down the half shafts! Unfortunately half shafts snapping is inevitable and is hence why people who wheel regularly carry spare ones! Even if you upgrade to strengthened halfshafts the next bit in the transmission to go will be the CV joints or bearings! It is what is called "mechanical domioes" and is why when replacing things like a master clutch cylinder you should also replace the slave too because it is now the weak link being older and more used it will fail shortly after replacing the master!

Originally Posted by p76rangie

Dislocation cones do not aide traction. If a spring is even coming close to dislocation it will have no weight on it and therefore no traction.

Right, dislocation cones don't directly aide traction but allow you axle to droop downwards (in the process possibly dislocating a spring) to attain traction and then allow the re-seating of the spring without having to get out of the truck and kicking it back in to place. I cannot tell you how irritating it is to have to do this! Plus on the front the dislocation cone semi-protects the middle of the shock from being forced outwards (and possibly buckled) as the spring dislocates!

As to the traction question, well that where your extended bump stops come in....

Originally Posted by p76rangie

If you already have tyres that fit why would you lift your vehicle.

Well tyres that fit are not going to help you if they have limited (or no) room to articulate them in axle twisting situations. Of which you come across whilst offroading pretty often! By lifting the suspension by only a couple of inches you can in one move extended the capability of your vehicle enormously! And at this point it is worth mentioning the difference between droop and lift I think!

When you lift a vehicle with a suspension kit what you are actually doing is fitting a system that allows your axles to droop (articulate) to a much lower level than standard, so keeping all wheels in contact with the ground. The body will be slightly lifted in relation to the ground too.

A body lift is merely to raise the bodywork upwards and in to a fixed position, allowing possibly deeper water and mud to be traversed, at the expense however of your centre of gravity! Yes this will allow much taller and wider tyres to be fitted too, oh and your truck will look very purposeful, however that there gravity is a bugger when it is working against you!!!

What you fit to your truck is your choice but IMHO I would go for axle travel, articulation and droop over body lift anyday!

Originally Posted by p76rangie

You can do a 4 inch lift without buying new brake lines. You only have to change the mounting position.

Yup sure you can do that too, either way there is a mod to do to prevent you from ripping your brake lines to pieces. I think there is a bit of lift - droop confusion here too. Personally I would prefer to leave the mounting position where it is and fit the extended brake hoses, just makes more sense to me, esspecially when you consider that if you fit a suspension kit you can effectively displace your axle downwards by anything up to a foot lower than it can as standard (see pics of Andys 90).

Originally Posted by p76rangie

Why would you lower your bump stops so that you restrict your wheel travel.

Right I hear what your saying and it is partially true. Extending your bump stops when you fit a +2" suspension kit seem like an odd thing to do however what it does is 2 things;

1) it prevents the axle moving up high enough to damage your extended shocks, DeCarbon shocks are renowned for having weak top mounts and they tend to get torn/sheared off whilst offroad.

2) they provide a pivot point for the axle! and this brings me back to the traction question you posed earlier. By lowering your bumpstops you are providing a fulcrum point at which the axle can pivot around. As you drive over an axle twister and one wheel comes up and makes contact with the extended bump stop, the force of the vehicle pressing down on the bump stop is transmitted through the axle and down to the now lowered end of the axle. This puts pressure on the lowered wheel and hence also providing traction to it to. If you didn't have extended bump stops the situation you potentially might end up with is is called floating axle where the axle is almost completely independant of the movement of the body. Plus apart from the weight of the truck you'd loose that extra force pushing the axle (and wheel) in to the ground and traction too! Now this is where your dislocation cones come in, because you are forcing one side of the axle downwards it is more likely that your springs will dislocate from their seats. The cones aide in the smooth continual opperation of the suspension setup, so as said before they do not directly improve traction but they do help in maintaining momentum!

Originally Posted by p76rangie

There is no need to change rear trailing arms, all you do is insert a spacer at the top of the bush on the chasis to tilt the bush.

Now funny you should mention this! When altering your suspension setup to gain extra axle droop/travel certain parts become the limiting factor after each modification, length of shock, ect ect. At a certain point the rear trailing arms do limit the travel of your rear axle, now over here in the UK the answer to this is to buy cranked rear trailing arms that take the stress off the chassis bush whilst also allowing the axle to further droop by a possible +2". I have been playing around in my head with the idea of a spacer plate instead of a whole new trailing arm. Have you seen any of these spacers for sale ???

Originally Posted by p76rangie

Ploybushes are not much good on a Landrover product. They wear out very quickly from mud a dirt, also they give a harsh ride and restrict suspension movement. If you use them on shocks you will generally break the shock.

Polybushes do not limit travel and they do not wear out quicker and they certainly do not provide a harsh ride! Esspecially if you refrain from buying the wrong bushes! Ironman are really hard, polybush Reds are also quite hard but are superb for road use. I use Polybush Blues and they are superb all round, they are supple, deformable and so far long lasting too! The travel of my axles was vastly improved after I had fitted the blue polys and the road handling is also superb, they are the equivalent hardness as the LR bushes but a damn sight easier to fit and replace!

I have to say I do not have them on my shocks because the shocks came with their own bushes so I didn't see the need to fit them, however I have never heard of people breaking shocks because of the bushes!

Originally Posted by p76rangie

You would normally raise the shock mounts to fit longer shocks on, rather than lower them.

Uh not true! if your looking for more axle articulation, you already have a decent set of shocks that are fairly new, one option is to keep them and buy instead a set of lowered shock mounts! or indeed to buy the lowered shock mounts with +3" shocks and get even more travel, however at that point other parts become the limiting factor and then your in to 3 link systems!

You can easily fit +3-4" longer shocks on to your standard shock mountings any longer then you'd have to start thinking about raising the mounting position.

Originally Posted by p76rangie

If you are into rock crawling a 3 point front suspension can have advantages, but such mods would be well down on the list of things to do.

Ian

A 3 link system is not only for rock crawling it is very well suited for other extreme offroading disciplines (winch challenges and such) and IMO has a place in recreational offroading too! If I had a couple of grand burning a hole in my pocket and had the choice between difflockers and a 3 link system I would choose the 3 link and the reason I would give is simple;

I'd prefer to keep all 4 wheels in contact with the ground, providing 100% stability and reliabliity than be dependant upon a non-field repairable difflocker.

Imagine your many many miles from anywhere and your difflocker dies on you, it could potentially lock up the axle completely, you can't drive anywhere, you can't get in contact with anyone how do you fix it? With suspension you many have a broken shock but hell yer can still drive home! or you stand a pretty good chance at being able to jury-rig something up to get you home!

Being reliant on something like a diff locker to get you places (or more importantly to get yer back again) IMHO is just asking for trouble. It is one of those gadgets that everyone wants (like a winch) but can't necessarily afford and yet seem to be the answer to a 4x4ers prayers cos "it will get you through", well possibly but...! IMHO difflockers are the sort of thing that if you can afford you only use when it is absolutely necessary but are certainly not the be all and end all! If you can't afford them then to get a highly capable offroader you can buy a bit at a time suspension-wise and spread the cost and still have a vehicle that will probably go almost anywhere a vehicle with difflockers can go!

Remember technology always lets you down when you need it most, basic mechanical stuff may be more crude but it will just keep on going - like a landrover, basic but keeps on going!

[Geobloke]

Hang on a minute that didn't post me pics!

Here you go!

Heck, congrats to the people who get through my last post! What a rant!

[DiscoPilot]

HOLY SHIT that is some articulation yes please

[Geobloke]

Originally Posted by DiscoPilot

HOLY SHIT that is some articulation yes please

Apparently coming to a store near you soon! Thats not at its limit neither!! What I love about the setup is that the body stays almost parallel with the ground giving excellent driving stability!

[DiscoPilot]

Wow i just looked at gone 2 far's website and I believe I have a new goal that stuff seems to outflex the $G 3 link ? yes?

[Geobloke]

Originally Posted by DiscoPilot

Wow i just looked at gone 2 far's website and I believe I have a new goal that stuff seems to outflex the $G 3 link ? yes?

Ummm not sure don't think they have been compared yet! It certainly out flexes the Scorpion extreme kit! Andy is also apparently working on a 4 link system as we speak which should be ummm well INSANE!

[Discrover]

Man that is the best freaking FLEX I have EVER seen on a Landy...all I can say is WOW!!

As far as lockers go everyone who knows them has an opinion. If you don't wheel really hard I don't think you need them. If you just moderatley play then your truck is truly arleady capable of that.

If wheeling is a passion of yours and you want to get more and more out of your truck I think the Detroit/Trutrack setup is the way to go and just a little over a grand for the back detroit and the front trutrack from Great Basis Rovers it doesn't get much better unless you want to drop 2K and all the crap that goes into installing ARB's.

Advantage ARB's over the Detroit/Trutrack very little IMHO...and not worth a grand more in out performance.

Of course here are some picture of a Disco locked front and back burried to the axles but hell it is fun to dig them out right?

One last tid bit by experience...if you are wheeling with a group or another truck and you don't have lockers and the other truck does...it will not matter what line you choose as you will not be able to climb with the locked rigs....but I am talking...LARGE 40-100ft climb outs...the stuff lockers will really get you up and over.

I am not expert though...just my 0.02 cents.

[Discrover]

a couple more pics...

[FrankyRizzo]

That gone2far stuff is way cool. I like how they have the Volvo portals for sale as well. Kinda spendy but would look really cool.

[FrankyRizzo]

You guys are killing me with all the mud pics.

[Geobloke]

Originally Posted by FrankyRizzo

You guys are killing me with all the mud pics.

Lol how dead do you want to be, cos we got loads more like that!!!! all we got here is rain and mud!!

[FrankyRizzo]

Originally Posted by Geobloke

Lol how dead do you want to be, cos we got loads more like that!!!! all we got here is rain and mud!!

Bring it! send them to me direct if you want. singlespeed@cox.net

[p76rangie]

Geobloke. It looks like you have had fun building your truck and obviously you have certain types of conditions in mind when building it.

“I agree in that if you know you are definately heading offroad in search of the really deep claggy mud then difflockers are a worthwhile purchase, however 75% of offroaders don't go anywhere near that sort of mud!” A clay based track will turn to shit very quickly in the wet. I regularly see tracks that you could drive a car along during the dry and need a locker in the wet. Such conditions are not as rare as you make out.

”Your wheels spinning shouldn't kill a rover diff, what kills diffs (and half shafts) is the sudden change from no (or limited) traction to partial (or full) traction and causes 1 or 2 wheels to suddenly slow (or stop) and you run the risk of snapping a half shaft (or wrecking a diff). Which is more likely with locking diffs anyway because there is nowhere for the torsional stresses to go but down the half shafts!” The spider gears in a rover diff do not have bearings. They are a straight metal to metal contact. They are designed for limited movement between the axles when turning corners and not the rapid movement from spinning wheels. Spinning wheels causes the spider gear to eat into the shaft, eventually overheating and seizing or breaking the shaft. If you strip down virtually any diff used off road and you will find damage to the pin and spider gears. Rover diffs are also very weak with all the drive going through a single pin. Most diff locks are dual pin and considerably stronger. Crown wheel and pinions general break through shock loading. Such shock loading is usually caused by a wheel spinning and then rapidly find grip. This is more likely to occur with an open diff rather than a diff lock. Again with the rover diffs being relatively weak, the centre allows the crown wheel to flex under load. This places the pinion gears further out the teeth on the crown wheel. This is another reason for breakages in rover diffs. The centre on a diff lock is a lot more solid and reduces such flexing.
Virtually all my friends that have fitted diff locks have done so after breaking at least on standard rover diff. I personally blew up 2 in 6 months before I stopped wasting money on rover diffs and got a diff lock. Have not had a diff breakage since.
“Right, dislocation cones don't directly aide traction” AGREE.
“By lifting the suspension by only a couple of inches you can in one move extended the capability of your vehicle enormously!” How? If I put heavier springs on to obtain a lift, how does this improve articulation.
“When you lift a vehicle with a suspension kit what you are actually doing is fitting a system that allows your axles to droop (articulate) to a much lower level than standard, so keeping all wheels in contact with the ground.” As you stated earlier, this does not aide traction. If the springs a dislocated, it will add virtually nothing to stability of the vehicle.
“A body lift is merely to raise the bodywork upwards and in to a fixed position, allowing possibly deeper water and mud to be traversed” Interesting concept if you are worried about getting your feet wet, but I am more worried about water in the motor and this does not rise with a body lift. “at the expense however of your centre of gravity! Yes this will allow much taller and wider tyres to be fitted too, oh and your truck will look very purposeful, however that there gravity is a bugger when it is working against you!!! “ A body lift raises you centre of gravity less than a spring lift. With a spring lift you are rising the height of the chassis, motor, gearbox, transfer case, etc, etc. A body lift does not raise these items.

”What you fit to your truck is your choice but IMHO I would go for axle travel, articulation and droop over body lift anyday!” The thing that mostly stops me is ground clearance. Therefore the important thing to me is getting my diffs as far off the ground as possible. This is generally achieved by bigger tyres. The only way to get bigger tyres on a car without limiting your upward movement of you springs is to do a body lift.
“By lowering your bumpstops you are providing a fulcrum point at which the axle can pivot around. As you drive over an axle twister and one wheel comes up and makes contact with the extended bump stop, the force of the vehicle pressing down on the bump stop is transmitted through the axle and down to the now lowered end of the axle. This puts pressure on the lowered wheel and hence also providing traction to it to.” Anyone that knows anything about leverage will state that the small amount of leverage that will occur between the bump stop and the wheel will add very little downward pressure on the opposite wheel
“Have you seen any of these spacers for sale ???” Just make my own. I have them on both rear trailing arms.
“Polybushes do not limit travel and they do not wear out quicker and they certainly do not provide a harsh ride!” Driving on the road is fine, take it off road and they will last a couple of weeks. Have experimented with poly bushes a couple of times. I have two broken shocks and many stuffed bushes to say they don’t work
“Uh not true! if your looking for more axle articulation, you already have a decent set of shocks that are fairly new, one option is to keep them and buy instead a set of lowered shock mounts! or indeed to buy the lowered shock mounts with +3" shocks and get even more travel, however at that point other parts become the limiting factor and then your in to 3 link systems!” Another interesting comment. If you have shocks with an extra 3 inches in open length, you will have an extra 1.5 inches in close length. If you then drop your shock mounts my another inch, your fully closed position will be 2.5 inches lower. So unless you want to break your shock you will have to stop the wheel coming up those 2.5 inches. This limits your articulation unless you move your articulation further away from the chassis. This will involve longer springs that will raise your centre of gravity more than it needs to. If you move your shock mounts up 1.5 inches, you still increase your downward movement by 1.5 inches, but you do not increase you centre of gravity.

I am not saying that a 3 link suspension does not offer advantages, but they are minimal in normal off roading, including competition events. Again the top competition rovers in this area of the world do not run them. Now if they do not see the benefits in them, I doubt whether there is any great benefit to the recreational off roader

”Imagine your many many miles from anywhere and your difflocker dies on you, it could potentially lock up the axle completely, you can't drive anywhere, you can't get in contact with anyone how do you fix it?” Relatively simply, you remove the prop shaft to the affected diff, pull the axles and drive it home in 2 wheel drive. But I have seen many more standard diffs blow up than diff locks. So the chances a greatly enhanced without a locker.