K&N Filter disco II

[greekdisco]

do yall recommend K&N fillter over stock ?

[rmuller]

air or oil? If air. no.. It's killed a lot of peoples mass air flow sensors b/c of the oil, just stick with the paper filters..

[Disco Mike]

X2
Great oil filters but the Bosh MAF is prone to being comtaninated by then and at $135 a pop, it is not worth it for the 1/4 MPG increase.
Mike

[Dan Erickson]

I never saw an increase in mileage or power from mine.

I ran it for over a year like that. I did encounter MAF problems, but was able to get away with cleaning it. Bought a new one anyway and now carry the other as a spare.

It did seem to come out of the box with too much oil on it. I did not really think too much about that at the time, and maybe that was the reason I had the MAF problems. I cleaned it and resprayed with less oil, then started to worry if it was enough to catch all the dirt.

I have gone back to a standard type filter a few months back.

Peace,

Dan

[Jupiter Rover]

the paper filter barely allows any air to enter your intake VS the k&n.filter. do the test. blow into the k&n and you can feel the air come out the other side. blow into the paper and you dont feel nearly as much. and yeah. make sure there isnt Alot of oil. but the filter itself is going to cattch the dirt. overall the k&n is definately better than the piece of paper. thats just my opinion.

[Disco]

I agree with RMuller & DiscoMike. On a stock motor the K&N filter does 'diddly', and if you do go ahead and fit one, then you had better be prepared to clean and oil it religiously.

[Disco Mike]

Originally Posted by Jupiter Rover

the paper filter barely allows any air to enter your intake VS the k&n.filter. do the test. blow into the k&n and you can feel the air come out the other side. blow into the paper and you dont feel nearly as much. and yeah. make sure there isnt Alot of oil. but the filter itself is going to cattch the dirt. overall the k&n is definately better than the piece of paper. thats just my opinion.

Better set aside a Disco fund for $135 cause one day you will get a set of 3 fault codes telling you your MAF has died.
Mike

[Muddy Oval]

The engine can get all the air it needs through a stock filter. The K&N flows well when clean, but doesn't filter well until it's dirty. So, lots of dirty air up until it gets as restrictive as a paper filter (or worse) when it finally starts filtering. How's that an improvement?

[Adam in NYC USA]

Originally Posted by Disco

I agree with RMuller & DiscoMike. On a stock motor the K&N filter does 'diddly', and if you do go ahead and fit one, then you had better be prepared to clean and oil it religiously.

read it here:
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/kn8.htm
http://www.lbcarco.com/cgi-bin/gen5?...l&o=&a=&t=_top

The service interval for street use is every 50,000 miles. That is "religiously".

Ha!

Please stop the nonsense about ragging K & N air filters. Stop this elitist horse manure.They work. If you are so negative about K&N air filters, why don't you take all this negative energy and all your "proof" of engine damage and sue them out of business?

This type of air filter is derivative of the old style oiled air filters used in Mercedes-Benz and I don't hear any whining about that technology from their owners.

I own one and my periodic checks reveal no particles inside the intake hose and washing it with intake cleaner washes clear. Ditto with the intake. Try that with a paper filter.

I dunno about some appliance operators here but I usually air my air filters prior to install and use something you others seem to ignore: my calibrated eye. If the filter had arrived damp, I would have hit it with some compressed air and removed the excess oil.

If you gentlemen cant use the meat on top of your shoulders to make an educated decision regarding aftermarket parts, then you really deserve everything that happens to you.

[rmuller]

Adam -- I also have a K&N air filter in my truck, and it has never let me down... but, there are dozens of documented experiences (between this board, discoweb and LR mechanics clients) when mass air flow sensors have crapped out and codes have been thrown and the similarity in all of the cases was the fact they were using a K&N filter... Maybe its the operators fault, maybe a few of us have just been lucky with not getting any problems... But from the magnitude of problems that have seemed to arise from using them, I strongly do not recommend people to use them. I don't think the cost savings of having a reusable filter and the minor, if any, increase in horsepower is equal to the replacement cost of a new MAFS.

[Adam in NYC USA]

but I of the cloth that if you are going to muck with the works, you should be responsible for your actions.

As for all the writings on this board and the others, I have researched most of the internet writings to death.

The majority of them can be distilled to two points: people who don't know what they are doing and those whose based their information on opinions and the technical equilivent of "barracks talk".

If you contaminate your MAF, and you knew you have a wet filter, and did nothing about it prior, you deserve the grief you imposed on your poor Land Rover.

I , however, have used most all airfilters except those silly foam DayGlo filters on two different automotive platforms (Mitsu and Land Rover) and received my own version of an education.

Did I contaminate a MAF? Yes. Did I learn something? Yes.

You are responsible for what you do to your pride and joy.

Another point, I am honest , brutually so. If I messed up, I will say it. So far, I have been pretty good with my diagnostics and even helped out my mechanic with a bad GEMS ECU I had.

But this thread is a sorry, one-sided artifact and should not be representative of the fine, excellent style of some of the posts placed here.

My point is.....education is the powerful tool here and ego is the most destructive tool here. Ask yourself if the past posts are based on expierence and wisdom or bar chatter.

Adam in NYC

[Adam in NYC USA]

Read this as well:

http://knfilters.com/faq.htm#6

7. Will a K&N filter cause my vehicle’s mass air sensor to fail?

No, it is both impossible and ridiculous.

It is impossible because we know that the oil treatment on our cotton is very small (usually less than 2 ounces). Once the oil is properly and evenly absorbed through the cotton, no oil will come off, even under extreme engine conditions. It is ridiculous, because no dealership or service provider has ever been able to provide us with evidence to support this “myth,” and in fact, our investigations have revealed that even authorized dealerships are simply speculating and do not have the test equipment necessary to know whether the sensor has failed or why. It is even more ridiculous because some car manufacturers use and sell air filters treated with oil on a regular basis. There are also major brands of disposable air filters that are treated with oil. We all use oil for the same reason, it helps in the filtration efficiency of an air filter.

Out of the millions of air filters we sell, we only receive a handful of consumer complaints each month that a dealership or service provider has blamed a vehicle sensor repair on our product. We take each complaint very seriously and see it as an opportunity to stop a consumer from being taken advantage of. We investigate the situation thoroughly and take full responsibility for resolving the issue. For more information on how we educate and persuade the service provider to reconsider their position, see Mass Air Flow Sensor Information & Testing. We are so confident in our ability to resolve these situations and help a consumer fight back that we offer our Consumer Protection Pledge.

As a result of our standing up for consumer rights and providing assistance to resolve a disagreement, we have had 77 actual sensors sent to us by dealerships who claimed our product had caused them to fail. Microscopic, electronic and chemical testing revealed that none of the 77 sensors were contaminated by K&N oil (K&N Detailed MAF Sensor Test Results). What is perhaps the single biggest clue to what is going on is that over 50% of these sensors were not broken in the first place for any reason. Click here for more information on how this may happen. For more information on this topic, see our Mass Air Flow Sensor Statement page.

http://knfilters.com/MAF/MAFTestresults.htm

and here: http://knfilters.com/MAF/massair.htm

We are aware of the “urban myth” (K&N News Story) created by a few dealerships that a vehicle's MAF sensor can be contaminated by K&N filter oil. No evidence has ever been provided to support this “myth” and three years of diagnostic testing by K&N has shown that not only is this allegation not real, it is not even possible. In our opinion, it is an excuse for a dealership and/or the vehicle manufacturer to avoid a legitimate warranty repair. In the last 4 years, we have sold over 10,000,000 lifetime air filters and received only a few hundred calls from consumers who are having dealership or service provider challenges. We believe that Dealership's or service provider's real incentive may be to discourage the use of reusable products so they can sell disposable products over and over. In order to provide consumers with added comfort that they will not be placed in a bad position by a improper warranty denial, we offer our Consumer Protection Pledge.

http://www.knfilters.com/news/news.aspx?ID=422



K&N Reveals Mass Air Flow Sensor Urban Myths

There are four words from a mechanic that should trigger a red flag for consumers, Mass Air Flow Sensor. A little knowledge about this “mystery” sensor can save hundreds of dollars and protect car warranties.

If a mechanic or dealership claims excess oil from a K&N Engineering Lifetime Air Filter caused a Mass Air Flow sensor (MAF) failure, it’s not true. K&N has researched, tested and devoted many hours to confirm the use of K&N Air Filters, including over oiled air filters, will not cause a Mass Air Flow sensor failure under any remotely normal driving conditions.

K&N Engineering Mass Air Flow Testing
K&N Engineering Mass Air Flow Testing
Oil does not come off K&N Filters. If a mechanic or dealership claims K&N is the problem there has to be proof. K&N will often work with consumers to recover money for repairs which should have legitimately have been covered under the vehicle’s warranty where warranty coverage would otherwise have been available.

“We’ve tested Mass Air Flow sensors and discovered these parts are being replaced when they don’t need to be,” said K&N Senior Lab Manager Rich Dwyer. “Consumers are sometimes told readings from the Mass Air Flow sensor show it is saturated with oil from a K&N Filter. This is not true. Consumers should ask to see the Mass Air Sensor codes and/or get a second opinion.”

In a period where K&N sold more than 5 million filters, 52 sensors were evaluated. Not one of these suspected MAF sensors sent in for laboratory evaluation were shown to have failed because of contamination from K&N filter oil. In fact, 28 sensors were in perfect operating condition. K&N helped those consumers recover money for unnecessary parts and labor.

The other 24 sensors failed due to factors not related to K&N. There were traces of silicone potting compound which is used in the manufacture of MAF sensors, meaning the MAF sensor contaminated itself. There was also evidence of motor oil contamination from blow-by; a condition where oil vapor from combustion is re-circulated into the vehicle’s intake tract.

“A lot of dealerships do not have the ability to test MAF sensors,” said K&N Vice President of Product Development and Engineering Steve Williams. “If you’re going to diagnose something you should show whether it is at fault or not. What they have is what we call the plug and play process. That is where they go through and download some codes and guess. The consumer then gets hit with a bill for components that were never a problem. K&N always tells people the facts.”
K&N Engineering Research and Development Department
K&N Engineering Research and Development Department
There is no silicone in K&N oil and testing has shown that MAF sensors will operate normally after being immersed in K&N Filter oil.

“Who is in a worse position than a consumer who has taken their car into a shop and told this is what you have to do to get your car back on track,” said K&N CEO Steve Rogers. “Consumers have rights and information is power, no one needs to be taken advantage of.”

K&N is also committed to working with its dealership network and notes that most dealerships provide excellent service and fulfill car warranty obligations without issue, argument or tardiness. K&N is also committed to communicating with its customers and fully disclosing all information about this issue.

K&N encounters less than 200 dealership problems annually, which is very small compared to the number of filters we sell annually (2,500,000), and we treat each situation as if it were our own personal problem.

If you encounter a similar problem related to K&N Filters at your dealership, contact us immediately and allow us to communicate with the dealership on your behalf. K&N has had great success in working with dealerships to resolve these types of issues on behalf of our customers. Many dealerships sell and service K&N Air Filters and we encourage you to work with those dealerships.

“K&N wants to dispel a dealership myth that in some way problems with the ‘mystery’ sensor or Mass Air Flow sensor is tangled with K&N products,” said Williams. “The average consumer does not have a prayer to be able to decided what is true or not. K&N will stand behind our products and go to bat for our consumers.”

For more information about MAF Sensors go to the K&N Mass Air Flow Sensor page.

Find K&N products for your vehicle using the K&N application search then use the K&N dealer search to find a K&N dealer in your part of the world.


Copyright © 2006 K&N Engineering, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

[Disco]

FWIW Adam, I run K&N filters on both my Disco's, as both have high performance engines and benefit from the better air flow. I don't have a MAF sensor in either of them as the air flow is controlled by Motec. As I drive them offroad quite often, I do have to clean them religiously, perhaps thats the part I left out of my post, and, unless you have shares in K&N filters, there's no need to post all their FAQ's and performance details, I for one am familiar with them.
As your truck is stock, and your so into research, perhaps you could share with us the performance results you've had prior and since installing the K&N filters, so as to disprove that they do "diddly" on a stock motor.

[KDamericano]

As I'm somewhat new to the LR scene, I can't comment on this application, however, I can tell you that the crowd I'm coming from (import racing/performance) has very mixed views about K&N filters. Most of them stem from over-oiled filters that clogged up MAFs, although the majority are fixed with a little cleaning, or a little caution prior to installing said filter. Although I have a lot of respect for K&N and their products, I've never been that impressed by their drop in filters, as they generally don't make great gains, and I only spend about $20 in new air filters a year anyways.
My disco has a very new-looking K&N in it now (came that way), so when I get a chance, I'm going to pull off the MAF and see if there's any red oil I can find. Also, there's a shop with an AWD dyno down the street from me. While I'm pretty broke right now, I might try to make it down there at some point for a little comparrison test. If you ladies wouldn't mind putting all this hold for a few months, I'd be happy to provide some dyno-sheet comparrisons.

[bama]

Not trying to cause more arguement but a question if the oil dosent come off
what is the crap that gets all over your fingers when you open a k&n filter, just a question.

just my thought, and I'm sticking with stock!! better safe than sorry!
like i said i dont care either way make your own decisions, k&n has a pretty impressive response to these findings, on there web site

i've ran them in my mustangs and have 0 problems with them.