This Locker or that Locker

[1hank1]

Again, answer the fucking question:

So, you're saying you broke a 24-spline HD axle that was sold to you by Bill at GBR?

[jimfoo]

Originally Posted by 1Yank1

road manners with detroit in the rear - DiscoWeb Message Boards

"only time i even notice it's there is when i have low air in a rear tire.
then you'll hear an occasional pop, or in really tight turns you'll hear it ratchetting.beyond that...same same"

"honestly it felt "squirely" I do not know how else to describe it. It was like every steering component went loose on the truck in those conditions and I had to constantly correct the steering a hair in each direction every few seconds. Maybe it was just me but I didn't like it."

"I have one in my D1 its nice, my make some noise around a tight corner hitten the gas a lilltle. I havent had it in the snow yet, so I cant say any thing their. awsome in the sand."


"A member in our Arizona group has 96 DI with a detroit in the back and a ARB in the front and he loves the Detroit.
He's got 4" of lift and is running 35's.
No side effects to speak of accept sharp cornering you'll hear a little clicking. He's had his in for about 6 months."
"Originally Posted by D Chapman
You'll never know it's there on the street."

"That is unless the street is snow or ice covered. I'll not go back to a Detroit, not that it was that bad, cause I dealt wit hit for 2 years but it was weird enough for me not have the desire to go back. Dry highway or even rain I could never tell.

Also I didn't like the way it crabbed up slick muddy hills."
Could that be because it locked when cornering on ice and snow, and ratcheted(unlocked) when cornering in good traction conditions? Actually a lot of the posts seem to contradict each other.

[jimfoo]

Originally Posted by 1Yank1

Again, answer the fucking question:

So, you're saying you broke a 24-spline HD axle that was sold to you by Bill at GBR?

You can't read, can you. Look just a couple posts up. There are words saying I have GBR 24 spline axles. There are words saying my Detroit also broke, also sold to me by BILL AT GBR.

[1hank1]

"only time i even notice it's there is when i have low air in a rear tire.
then you'll hear an occasional pop, or in really tight turns you'll hear it ratchetting.beyond that...same same"

Different tire pressure. Dud, it's going to do that! Everyone knows that.

"Ratchetting in tight turns"... Well no shit! That is what it does.......until you hit the gas. Why is that hard for you to understand, JimFool?

"honestly it felt "squirely" I do not know how else to describe it. It was like every steering component went loose on the truck in those conditions and I had to constantly correct the steering a hair in each direction every few seconds. Maybe it was just me but I didn't like it."

This was Rob's comment WHEN THE T-CASE WAS LOCKED. Meaning, there was power to the fucking pinion. The DT was locked......off-the-fucking-road. How does this help your case, JimFool, with road manners?

"I have one in my D1 its nice, my make some noise around a tight corner hitten the gas a lilltle. I havent had it in the snow yet, so I cant say any thing their. awsome in the sand."

Again, thank you, WHEN HE IS ON THE GAS.

"A member in our Arizona group has 96 DI with a detroit in the back and a ARB in the front and he loves the Detroit.
He's got 4" of lift and is running 35's.
No side effects to speak of accept sharp cornering you'll hear a little clicking. He's had his in for about 6 months."

As it does! That's what I've said all along when these are install in a fucking Rover. You will never know it's there (unless the t-case is locked)

"Originally Posted by D Chapman
You'll never know it's there on the street."

Damn, there is is again!

"That is unless the street is snow or ice covered. I'll not go back to a Detroit, not that it was that bad, cause I dealt wit hit for 2 years but it was weird enough for me not have the desire to go back. Dry highway or even rain I could never tell.

Again, "Dry highway or even rain I could never tell". Thank you, Jimfool, for making my point yet again.

Also I didn't like the way it crabbed up slick muddy hills."

T-case locked, power to the pinion. Again.

....and how many streets have "slick muddy hills"? I thought want to knbow about road manners, jimfool? Make up you damn mind here....

Could that be because it locked when cornering on ice and snow, and ratcheted(unlocked) when cornering in good traction conditions? Actually a lot of the posts seem to contradict each other.

No, it will unlock in a turn WHEN THERE IS NO POWER TO THE PINION. It's that damn easy!

[1hank1]

Originally Posted by jimfoo

You can't read, can you. Look just a couple posts up. There are words saying I have GBR 24 spline axles. There are words saying my Detroit also broke, also sold to me by BILL AT GBR.

I'm going to check on this. Believe me! I think you're lying. I don't think you broke a GBR axle.

Got pics?

Was it covered under warrenty? Why not?

[jimfoo]

BTW, where are those videos PROVING that a Detroit is ALWAYS locked in a corner when under power, not that a video could prove it anyway, but you said it, so it must be true.

[jimfoo]

Originally Posted by 1hank1

I'm going to check on this. Believe me! I think you're lying. I don't think you broke a GBR axle.

Got pics?

Was it covered under warrenty? Why not?

Bill sent me a new one to Moab. I sent him the broken piece for analysis when I got home. I actually got the axles at a discount when I bought them as I was testing them for him. I also tested his 10 spline HD axles and broke them both at the same time, though I was hopping on rock with a welded diff at the time.

My GBR 24 spline axles and Detroit. Part of a GBR sticker is visible in the upper left. I don't believe I took a photo of it broken, but if you don't believe me, ask Bill as he knows me well. I don't see why you are so amazed as ANY axle can break given the right conditions. That's why so many rock crawler Rovers are going to Toy axles with the e-lockers, the stock or upgraded 24 spline coiler axles won't hold up to hard use. I've even seen a 109 Series 4 cyl break a Salisbury axle on Moab Rim.

[1hank1]

Originally Posted by jimfoo

BTW, where are those videos PROVING that a Detroit is ALWAYS locked in a corner when under power, not that a video could prove it anyway, but you said it, so it must be true.

Even if I wanted to, JimFool, I could not make the videos at this time. It's been raining for 3-straight days here.

Still, I have a feeling it would not suit you.

[1hank1]

Originally Posted by jimfoo

Bill sent me a new one to Moab. I sent him the broken piece for analysis when I got home. I actually got the axles at a discount when I bought them as I was testing them for him. I also tested his 10 spline HD axles and broke them both at the same time, though I was hopping on rock with a welded diff at the time.

My GBR 24 spline axles and Detroit. Part of a GBR sticker is visible in the upper left. I don't believe I took a photo of it broken, but if you don't believe me, ask Bill as he knows me well. I don't see why you are so amazed as ANY axle can break given the right conditions. That's why so many rock crawler Rovers are going to Toy axles with the e-lockers, the stock or upgraded 24 spline coiler axles won't hold up to hard use. I've even seen a 109 Series 4 cyl break a Salisbury axle on Moab Rim.

So, these were the prototype GBR axles? Not the 300M HD axles as we know today? I think the truth is about to come out here.

I fully understand that Bill's axles can and will break. I just don't think you did it. We'll find out the real story here shortly.

I also like your comment about the Sals breaking....like that was hard to do. The stock Sals axles are weak. Very weak. The chunk is strong as hell - but the axles are weak.

[ArmyRover]

Well Dan I think oldscout is holding a grudge on pirate.

I must say this has been an entertaining read though lol

[jimfoo]

They could have been the "prototype", I don't know. They were what he had just started selling at the time. If he has stronger one now, good for him. He is a good guy and has always tried to provide good products. The date is in the pic. If you know when the 300M HD axles came out, then you will know which type these are. I was unaware he had changed them. Likewise I don't know what the replacement was, old or new, but so far it and the other one have lasted.

[jimfoo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1hank1
"I guess you forgot about post #75"

Reply-"That post doesn't say "all of the time" and technically, it is correct. If the load of the 1 input and 2 outputs are close to being balanced, a wheel can overspeed the other. Even on the throttle. Scott Frary of Detriot tells me that's why the Detroit works in every NASCAR, even on the roadcourses.

So far, nobody is wrong about this...it's one of those things you cannot describe perectly without getting all of the "engineers" on here frustrated with your terminology.

Let it die already, YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT...AND BOTH WRONG...sortof."

I can live with that.

[p m]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

So when will is unlock. If I am driving there is always power to the pinion. If I am decelerating there is force on the pinion. So to get it to unlock I have to somehow get the throttle exactly right so that I am not accelerating or decelerating.

Ian, this is a correct statement.
Add to it that the teeth on the side and central driver gears are slightly trapezoidal, which gives you a reasonable range of torque input (vs. difference in wheels' rates of rotation) to unlock the DL.

[p76rangie]

BANG BANG BANG. The sounds of Hank shooting himself in the foot AGAIN.

Now lets go through your latest ramblings.

You state that even though both wheels have good traction, you will need a diff lock to get over the rock you pictured. Now I thought that a diff lock added traction by preventing a wheel from spinning. How about explaining to us how a diff lock assists in a situation that the wheels have no chance of spinning as they have good traction. This should be interesting!

You claim again that you know more than the manufacturer. Gee you are good!

You claim that a DT will not shock load an axle. You then claim that the axle can twist up to 180 degrees before breaking. As this cannot be from shock loading (by you) what motor do you have that can supply that much power that it can twist an axle 180 degrees just from brut force.

You ask me to show a broken DT that did not break the axle first. But you can't supply one where it did. You have no proof what so ever as to which broke first. It just suits your story line that the axle broke first. But you can't explain why it is the broken axle side of the DT that breaks. That's right it is the built up energy in the axle when it breaks that is enough to break the DT. Now you should know that the axle will normaly break right on the diff drive flange. This means that a piece of axle around 1 inch is left in the diff. So what you are telling us is that 1 inch bit of axle has enough energy stored in it that it can destroy a DT. DTs must not be very strong!

You can't really explain, if there is all this energy, why it doesn't destroy ARB diffs.

You attempt to cover yourself about the fact that open diffs will often be more stressful on axles than a locker. You appear to state that as people with open diffs break axles, everyone should have HD axles. If you are saying this, then you finally prove my point, that is, it is not the locker that requires you to upgrade axles.

Something that you can't seem to settle on is whether a DT is unlocked or not when you drive through a corner in a Rover based 4WD. One time you say that it is front wheel drive and there is no power to the rear and the diff will unlock. In the next you seem to state that it is locked. Just answer this simple question, if a Disco is driving through a right hand turn, will the DT be locked or not??

I love your run for cover statement about "Most Vehicles". Even though you are on a landrover forum, "Most Vehicles" apparently doesn't mean anything that is all wheel drive.

You seem to argue with yourself a lot. In the one paragraph you state that you did not say that engine breaking will lock the locker. But you say it will not be unlocked. So it is not locked and it is not unlocked. What is it???

You did not answer what the difference was between engine breaking and reversing from a car park.

Another back peddle, it is supoisedly me that claimed that there was only 1 "O" ring. I think you will find that you made a big song and dance about there only being 1 "O" ring. The "O" ring that gives me the most hassle is the one between the air tank on the compressor and the compressor.

You continue to show your ignorance. You state that the "O" ring in the diff is made of rubber. Some expert!!!

You claimed that it is only standard axles that break in a DT and that HD axles are fine. But Jim had a HD axle break. How did you handle this news? First you accussed him of lying (pretty standard response from you) and then it wasn't really a HD axle because it was a prototype. You convinced me!

So you completed a "Regular" driving course. My point when this was first raised was whether you should drive through a corner or not. Well, did the course teach you to drive through a corner?

If you want to know what oil to use in an ARB, RTFM!!!

[1hank1]

Jesus, Ian. Are you still here? Just admit you're wrong and get on with it.

You state that even though both wheels have good traction, you will need a diff lock to get over the rock you pictured. Now I thought that a diff lock added traction by preventing a wheel from spinning. How about explaining to us how a diff lock assists in a situation that the wheels have no chance of spinning as they have good traction. This should be interesting!

So, if both wheels get traction:

Lets say you have a stock diff. Let's say again that both rear wheel are getting good traction. If you do not have a locker, does that mean that both wheels are going to get power? Or, does that mean that only one wheel will get power? Is only one wheel going to be enough to pull you out of this spot?

One of four things will happen:
1) You break a axle
2) You spin
3) You bust a U-joint
or
4) You bust a diff

You claim again that you know more than the manufacturer. Gee you are good!

ARB says that their locker will lock and unlock at the flick of a switch. Is this always, 100% of the time, the case?

It not who knows more. It's how it works in the field for personal experence - something you clearly do not have.

You claim that a DT will not shock load an axle. You then claim that the axle can twist up to 180 degrees before breaking. As this cannot be from shock loading (by you) what motor do you have that can supply that much power that it can twist an axle 180 degrees just from brut force.

First, a twisted axle is not a "shock loaded" axle. The only time you're going to get "shock load", as you out it, is when the axles breaks.

What motor can twist an axle 180 degrees? A stock 4.0L I know for a fact will. I saw this personally. The axles belonged to Mike Boggs. It came out of his Defender 90. This axle, as I understand it, now lives at the GBR shop. Shawn Davis, on this fourm, can probably confirm this.

You ask me to show a broken DT that did not break the axle first. But you can't supply one where it did.

Huh? Why would I supply you with this? I asked you for it! I know full well it does not exsist.

You have no proof what so ever as to which broke first. It just suits your story line that the axle broke first.

Pretty funny that you can't come up with a busted DT that did not break because of a broken axle...... So, my story fits. Your story does not fit. Pretty simple if you think about it.

But you can't explain why it is the broken axle side of the DT that breaks.

Again, Huh? Please explain to me what you want to know fully.

That's right it is the built up energy in the axle when it breaks that is enough to break the DT.

HOLY SHIT!!!! YOU GET IT!!!

Now, why the fuck have you went on for 7 pages saying that the DT breaks the axles, when clearly, the axles break the DT?

Now you should know that the axle will normaly break right on the diff drive flange. This means that a piece of axle around 1 inch is left in the diff. So what you are telling us is that 1 inch bit of axle has enough energy stored in it that it can destroy a DT. DTs must not be very strong!

Oh geez..... Do you know what "waisted" means? Do you understand why good axles are waisted? If not, just say so and I'll be happy to explain this to you, too. It will totally blow your theory out of the water.

You can't really explain, if there is all this energy, why it doesn't destroy ARB diffs.

Does a ARB have springs? Is the ARB built like a DT?

It's two different animals. You're compairing apples to oranges.

That's like saying Why does a Rover snap axles and toyotas snap u-joints.

You attempt to cover yourself about the fact that open diffs will often be more stressful on axles than a locker. You appear to state that as people with open diffs break axles, everyone should have HD axles. If you are saying this, then you finally prove my point, that is, it is not the locker that requires you to upgrade axles.

You're half right, Ian. You first have to understand that the Rover axles are junk. I mean they are complete shit. 10-spline are even shittier than the 24-spline axles. Just like the stock diffs, these axles break. These axles break because they were porrly designed from the get go by Land Rover.

But lets look at something like Toyota. Do you have to upgrade your axles in a Toyota when you install a DT? The answer is "no". Unlike Rover, Toyota out some thought in their axles. Toyota axles are great. They're 30-spline and 1.5" round. You can run 39" tires on stock Toyota rear axles and rarly break them.

Something that you can't seem to settle on is whether a DT is unlocked or not when you drive through a corner in a Rover based 4WD. One time you say that it is front wheel drive and there is no power to the rear and the diff will unlock. In the next you seem to state that it is locked. Just answer this simple question, if a Disco is driving through a right hand turn, will the DT be locked or not??

I've answered this question MANY times for you, Ian. Even in my very first post I answered this question.

The answer is "no", the DT will not be locked in a Rover with the LT-230 unlocked.

I'm not going to explain this yet again to you. If you ant to read why, look back at my other posts. It in there 3 or 4 times.

I love your run for cover statement about "Most Vehicles". Even though you are on a landrover forum, "Most Vehicles" apparently doesn't mean anything that is all wheel drive.

A Series LAND ROVER has a part-time t-case. So yes, MOST VEHICLES.

You seem to argue with yourself a lot. In the one paragraph you state that you did not say that engine breaking will lock the locker. But you say it will not be unlocked. So it is not locked and it is not unlocked. What is it???

Engine breaking has nothing to do with it, Ian. Why do you not understand that?

If you're going in a straight line, engine breaking or not, the DT is LOCKED. That includes "downhill". In your question, you said "when enging breaking going downhill". YES, the DT will be locked.

You did not answer what the difference was between engine breaking and reversing from a car park.

Huh? Are you going so fast backing up that the engine brakes your speed?? Do you even understand what enging brakeing is?

I know when I back up out of a parking spot, typically, I have one foot on the brake - or, at least resting on the brake. That's called "BRAKEING", not "engine brakeing".

BTW, it's brake, not break. Break is when you break something; brake is when you slow something.

Another back peddle, it is supoisedly me that claimed that there was only 1 "O" ring. I think you will find that you made a big song and dance about there only being 1 "O" ring. The "O" ring that gives me the most hassle is the one between the air tank on the compressor and the compressor.

Again, Ian. How many O-ringS are in the ARB air locking diff?

You continue to show your ignorance. You state that the "O" ring in the diff is made of rubber. Some expert!!!

What is it made is, Ian? Humor me!

You claimed that it is only standard axles that break in a DT and that HD axles are fine. But Jim had a HD axle break. How did you handle this news? First you accussed him of lying (pretty standard response from you) and then it wasn't really a HD axle because it was a prototype. You convinced me!

I know full well that HD axles can break. But I still think Jim is leaving some parts of the story out.

So you completed a "Regular" driving course. My point when this was first raised was whether you should drive through a corner or not. Well, did the course teach you to drive through a corner?

You coast into the turn, tight to the inside. Upon exit, you give throttle and drift to the outside.

"Regular" driving course of not, it's more than you've had.

If you want to know what oil to use in an ARB, RTFM!!!

Hahaha, Ian, you dumbass. I was really hoping you would bring this up again!

I stated I run Valovine 90w. You claimed that this was the "incorrect" oil to use. Just for shits and giggles, I e-mailed ARB. Here is their responce. Feel free to validate it!!!!!

Daniel,



There is no special differential oil required for our Air Lockers. We do not recommend LSD additives, as this can cause clogging of the small air passages. Use standard diff oil, or whatever the vehicle manufacturer recommends as long as it does not contain LSD additives.



Thanks,

Duffy Biggs



Customer Service

ARB USA

720 SW 34th Street

Renton, WA 98057

P: 425-264-1391

F: 425-264-1392

Duffyb@arbusa.com

ARB Air Locker Heavy Duty 4x4 Bumpers



You can view ARB products specific to your vehicle by clicking here:

Accessorize your rig with ARB

Still, Ian, where are your pictures of your set-up? I thought you were going to post some?????

Now, come back for more, Ian. Let me keep shoving this right back in your mouth. If I were you, I just admit that you're wrong. If you keep on, I'm going to make you eat your words about how a larger tire does not effect axles or place more stess on them. Remember that thread? I do.