This Locker or that Locker

[jimfoo]

Originally Posted by 1hank1

You've answered your own question, Ian.



Now, why one earth would the inside wheel loose traction?

Lets do this one question at a time.

Why would the inside wheel loose traction?

That is the question. On dry pavement why would it loose traction? The only reasons I can think of are excessive speed or excessive acceleration(with enough hp of course) Wet, snowy/icy or gravel roads are another thing altogether, which is where an ARB would be a much better choice.

On a totally different note, this is what was said about my axles. "I have sold 3 different versions of Series 24 spline axles. The ones you have are decent but they weren't the axle that they should have been. Unbeknownst to me the manufacturer changed the specifications on them without telling me. Needless to say, I went somewhere else."

[1hank1]

Originally Posted by jimfoo

That is the question. On dry pavement why would it loose traction? The only reasons I can think of are excessive speed or excessive acceleration(with enough hp of course) Wet, snowy/icy or gravel roads are another thing altogether, which is where an ARB would be a much better choice.

On a totally different note, this is what was said about my axles. "I have sold 3 different versions of Series 24 spline axles. The ones you have are decent but they weren't the axle that they should have been. Unbeknownst to me the manufacturer changed the specifications on them without telling me. Needless to say, I went somewhere else."

Settle down, Jim. I'm about to rape Ian.

[chrisvonc]

[jimfoo]

[Thor]

does a Detroit locked axle on pavement under power from the driveshaft chirp its inside tire everytime?

[chrisvonc]

No only if it gets wound up and you release the gas while in the turn, and then its not every time that it will chirp or bang

[1hank1]

Just to add to what CVC said......if you get the rear tires to chirp or bang in a Rover with the LT-230, you're really on the gas pretty hard. In a vehicle with a part-time t-case, it does not take much to do this.

Like I said in my very first post; You'll hardly ever know the DT is installed in a Rover. A Jeep is a different story....

[rmuller]

I have a DT in my D2 and I've never heard tires chirp, and a bang maybe 2 or 3 times.. I really don't notice any difference in daily driving with it...

[Thor]

I'll have to check to see what my locked ARB does on dry with the CDL open.

It seems to me the outside wheel in a DL is going faster simply because it is covering more ground (the vehicles motion relative to the ground is driving the outside wheel) and it the DL is allowing that side axle to ratchet forward instead of being 'driven' by the axle/locker union. So while it is 'locked' the outside wheel is not technically getting power because the ratchet catches are going slower than the outside axle.

So... If I understand, the two locker sides are going as slow as the inside tire, and the outside axle is allowed to pass the ratchets to allow it to cover more ground. (I know I have simplified the axle / locker union for ease of conception, and all the magic really happens within the DL itself.)

Thoughts?

[DaveC]

I was under the assumption that the DT would stay locked going into a turn if heavy on the throttle (CDL locked or in a RWD) because of the stress on the DT, but I guess that's not it. It comes down to traction at that inner driving wheel. If it loses traction, the DT locks. So.. if there were infinite traction the DT would always unlock no matter if the CDL is locked or the truck is a part time 4x4 (in theory at least).

Thanks. This thread has helped me to understand it better.

Dave

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by DaveC

Ian, I was under the assumption that the DT would stay locked going into a turn if heavy on the throttle (CDL locked or in a RWD) because of the stress on the DT, but I guess that's not it. It comes down to traction at that inner driving wheel. If it loses traction, the DT locks. So.. if there were infinite traction the DT would always unlock no matter if the CDL is locked or the truck is a part time 4x4.

Thanks. This thread has helped me to understand it better.

Dave

At least someone has gained something out of this discussion.

Hank, STILL WAITING!!!!!
Don't ask questions so that you can learn more from me. TELL ME WHERE I AM WRONG. Everyone knows that you would not miss this opportunity to "rape" me, if you could. Just finally admit it and post a picture of your Turkey award.

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by 1hank1

I'm about to rape Ian.

Hank, STLL WAITING!!!!

Can you please hurry up as my back is starting to hurt and my arse is getting cold!

[Thor]

Originally Posted by DaveC

I was under the assumption that the DT would stay locked going into a turn if heavy on the throttle (CDL locked or in a RWD) because of the stress on the DT, but I guess that's not it. It comes down to traction at that inner driving wheel. If it loses traction, the DT locks. So.. if there were infinite traction the DT would always unlock no matter if the CDL is locked or the truck is a part time 4x4 (in theory at least).

Thanks. This thread has helped me to understand it better.

Dave

From what I'm thinking the inner wheel if it spins will catch up to the speed of the outside wheel and then it will lock because the drive from the diff will catch up thus stopping the ratcheting.

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by Thor

From what I'm thinking the inner wheel if it spins will catch up to the speed of the outside wheel and then it will lock because the drive from the diff will catch up thus stopping the ratcheting.

100% correct. Once drive is restored to both wheels it will try to disenagage again, the inner wheel will lose traction again and the outer wheel will reengage again. This is the shock loading that I have been talking about since the beginning. That is, every time the outer wheel reengages.

[1hank1]

Hank, STILL WAITING!!!!!
Don't ask questions so that you can learn more from me. TELL ME WHERE I AM WRONG.

Okay

What I have also been saying is that unless both wheels are turning at EXACTLY the same rate (that is, in a straight line on a flat surface), in good traction conditions, the thing causes you to drive through one axle.

So, if both wheels are turning at “exactly” the same rate of speed, and the Detroit locks back together, this causes “shock load”? If two gears mesh perfectly together at a timed, in sequence motion, how can this cause “shock load”? If what you’re saying is true, each time the gear box shifts gears it causes “shock load” on the gear box, t-case, drive shafts, diffs, axles, and drive flanges.

Now, I could see that if one wheel is turning wildly and you try to engage the second wheel from a stopped or reduced speed into the works. Yes, that would cause some serious shock to the components. This is why the ARB locker explodes when locked at speed; you’re trying to jam two parts together at two different rates. It’s much like jamming 1st gear at 50mph – something has to give.

But this is not the case, as you say, with the Detroit locker. The unit locking and unlocking does not cause shock.

Pull out your axles and see how much they are twisted due to the Detroit only driving through one wheel. You are a lot better off looking at them now rather than have them break out on the trail.

Here you claim that the Detroit twists axles. This, again, is only half true. Yes, a Detroit places additional stress on axles shafts. This is not limited to just Detroit lockers, though. This is the case with ANY locking diff. It’s the same with an ARB, Lincoln locker, or a Detroit.

In addition, “driving through one wheel: is not what is causing the twists in the axles. It’s the additional stress.

Furthermore, this is not the case in all axle shafts. My axles shafts are made if 1541H; Maxi-Drive, I think, uses 4140. If it’s not 4140, it’s probably 300m, but I doubt it. Either way, 4140 or 300m both are designed to twist under pressure. This goes back to the waisted axle design I explained to you in this thread.

So yes, the locker does contribute to this “axles twisting”. But you’re only telling half the story. Stock ales will break regardless; most HD axles with twist due to design no matter what traction aid you use; no, my axles are not twisted and I’ve ran the same set for 6-years with both DT’s and ARB’s on everything from 255/85/16’s to 35/13.50/15’s at 4PSI.

So what you are saying is that because the vehicle actually drives through the front wheels through a corner, that the Detroit will have no affect as it is in the rear and therefore not driving the car. : :bawling :

Here, you fail to understand the basic principle of the LT-230. You attempt to let on that the LT-230 sends power to the rear axle 100% of the time while in normal driving conditions. This is just plain and simply not true.

The LT-230 takes the path of least resistance. You know full well that the inside rear tire of a Detroit equipped vehicle is under pressure while in a turn on the highway. Pressure = resistance. The front end will drive the Rover through the corner and send virtually no power at all to the rear pinion. This is the reason people never know the Rover has a Detroit locker installed on the highway. Here, the rear drive shaft is allowed to spin freely and wildly as the tire turns the axle that turns the diff that turns the pinion……….. It is at this point you have a “Bang” people refer to. It is at this point you may have a “shock load” to the axle since the ring gear and the axles are spinning at two different speeds when engaging. But more importantly, it is at this point power has been send to the pinion from the drive shaft, thus locking the diff – not only one side, but the entire diff. This is why you feel a jerk the same time as the “bang”. When you have this “jerk:, you also sometimes get a jerk or a bark of the tires.

This is a lot more common in a 5-speed vs. an auto gearbox. This is even more common yet with a part-time t-case where power in allowed to the pinion on a more constant basis.

If I am driving there is always power to the pinion.

What are you driving, your Rover? There is always power to your rear pinion when driving? Shit, why the hell do you need a diff lock on the t-case then? For looks?

If I am decelerating there is force on the pinion.

Only if the t-case is locked, Ian. Normally this statement is incorrect.

…….path of least resistance.

Loss of steering as the rear wheels attempt to push you in a straight line

Why would this happen? Because there is power to the pinion when making a turn with the t-case locked? If one wheel were allowed to slip in every case, like the manual states, why would the DT push your front end?

Unlocking when you want engine braking going down hills

So now the Detroit unlocks fully? Which is it, Ian? You state that the DT only unlocks the faster moving tire, yet here you allude to the DT free-spooling. Free-spooling would only be a case if there were not power to the pinion – meaning the t-case is unlocked.

This would be normal in a part-time 4wd truck with a DT in the front and the hubs locked. The axles still turn. But, you can select 2wd (rear wheel drive) and turn the vehicle. There is no power to the front pinion, from “engine braking” or otherwise. The DT then free-spools. There is no power to the pinion.

Once 4wd is selected again, and power is restored to the pinion, the vehicle then becomes hard to turn. In other words, when there is power to the pinion, the DT is locked.

Forcing a wheel to break traction every time you turn into a corner on a dirt road

This is a place you really contradict your self. Here you say “only on a dirt road”. You then confirm this here in this post:

You noticed that I said on a dirt road. Has to have sufficient traction to unlock the wheel.

….then you say here something different…..

the manual is saying that by the drive to one wheel disengaging, it will put all the drive through the other wheel. This extra stress on that wheel may cause it to lose traction.

….again, you can read the stuff but still not understand what you’re reading. The wheel may loose traction on pavement, in dirt, on-road, off-road, or on the moon. When the drive tire loses traction (spins faster), it will lock the diff.

If you enter a turn under power, the DT is not going to unlock. It may try to unlock, but you’ll end up getting under-steer and the rear end will try to slide out from under the vehicle. This causes the wheel to slip and the DT to re-lock.

This example is highly uncommon in AWD vehicles, such as the Rover, but is very common in other vehicles with a part-time t-case. Shorter wheelbases are even worse. This is the sole reason you have comments regarding “bad handling” or “unpredictable” from the Jeep and Toyota crowd.

This is because you sell the stuff, you don't do anything harder than a dirt road.

This quote just makes me laugh.

With lockers like ARB, there is no real reason to need upgraded axles.

Wrong again, Ian. ARB’s do need HD axles to last. Yes, the chances of busting a diff are slim if the axles break – unlike the Detroit – but it’s still a locker. It still needs HD shafts. This is just a no brainer.

Now what do you think happens under engine braking. That's right, the wheel wants to turn faster than the drive. Do you have a clue?

Now, here you are back at this damn engine braking shit again…

If what you say is correct, you would be able to lock your t-case, jack up the rear end of your truck, and spin both rear tires forward at the same time the gear box is in reverse and under power. It’s not going to happen, Ian.

Neither tire can or will unlock in this case. Both tires are allowed to spin faster then the ring gear (pinion) at the same time. If that were so, you would have no engine breaking at all. Period. That would also mean that in a part-time t-case truck, while in 2wd, you would have zero engine braking. That would mean when you downshift a 5-speed, on the street or elsewhere, the vehicle would not slow down. That would mean if you take your foot off the accelerator, the truck would maintain speed.

In other words, you’re wrong, again.

A normal locker will not break axles. If anything they are easier on the drive train than open diffs.

Wrong again, Ian.

A locker, “normal” or not, is placing more strain on the components. Remember “engine braking”? Now, with a locker, are one or two axles being strained when engine braking? Is one or two axles locked together, going to place more, or less, stress on U-joints? Is one, or two axles locked together, easier to turn when in contact with the ground?



I’m only to page 4. This is boring. Must I continue on, Ian?