This Locker or that Locker

[ArmyRover]

DiscoWeb Message Boards

[1hank1]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

Can't see the photos, so I am not sure what they are talking about.
But what I said is that the airline going from the compressor to the diff can be fixed in less than 5 minutes on the trail. If you don't know how to do it that quickly, I suggest you go away and have a think about it. I am not about to tell you something that will make your life easier.

5-minutes fix, huh. lol

[1hank1]

Where is the photos of the diff.

Attached below

All you have shown is the gear to run a single air line to the diff. Now that is real complicated, alright, it might be for you.

Point being, there is more parts to an ARB. You posted the DT diagram. It's one unit encased inside of a 3rd member. The ARB has lots of parts; 3x as many as a DT. Meaning, since you're too stupid to understand it, the ARB has more parts to fail.

As previously stated, I can fix a broken airline in less than 5 minutes on the trail.

Sure, an air line is easy. But, are you carrying extra pumps? Extra solenoids? Extra O-rings? Extra copper line?

The O-ring is the VERY MOST COMMON part that fails on the ARB's. But from your response above, it's clear that you have no idea how O-rings there are or where they're located. Go look it up now, so you seem smart to yourself, then come back here and tell us it's a 5-minute fix. Better yet, post some pictures of your spare O-rings on the hood of your truck!

Who wants to bet we never get any pictures..............

But none of that stuff you showed will stop me driving home as I would normally.

You are correct. And the same with the DT locker. That picture you posted is an extreme breakage - I don't know how or why it happened. But the common "shock overload" breakage that IS common when DT when a stock axle fails will still allow you to drive the truck.

But then again, by the photos of your piece of junk, you don't drive it home. It gets towed.

See, you're wrong yet again. My truck was towed to Texas and that's the only time it's ever been towed. That's not to say I could not have driven it there. But we were taking two trucks anyway. With gas at ~3.70 a gallon, why double it? That's as stupid as you are.

Here are pics of me leaving for trips in which I'd be camping for days, sometimes weeks, at a time.

The trailer did not pull it's self to this event.

Did not pull it's self to this one, either



I could go on and on, Ian. What you're doing is trying to push your opinion off as fact. All it does is make you look like a complete moron. You try to act like you know me; you don't. You have no clue. You've tried to refer to me as a vendor of sorts, someone who tows my truck to off-road areas, and a idiot who does not understand how these traction aids work.

You also try to refer to me as a person who has no regard to the aesthetics of my truck. See, there you are wrong yet again. Yes, my silver truck has been to hell and back and it shows. It's not because I beat the truck, it's just because the truck has seen the trails 100's of times. I don't like body damage, but I don't avoid a trail because of the possibility of it, either. If I want to drive a "nice" truck, I'd take my pick of the other Rovers in the driveway.

[1hank1]

Why post a sales pitch from someone that sells HD axles. What are you trying to prove?

ECR sells HD axles? Huh, I did not know that.

In either case, that information is correct. I don;t care if it comes from you, your sister, or you mom (she'll be home shortly).

So let me see if I have it right about what you are trying to say. If two Discos went on exactly the same trails following each other and one had open diffs and one had ARB lockers, the one with the locker is more likely to brake an axle than the one with the open diffs. Am I learning and got it right.

That is CORRECT!!! YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The open diff truck will likely loose traction way before a locked truck will. That's a no brainier. So, tat mean more stress will be placed on the axles.

Remember, in an open diff, the power goes to the point of least resistance. If you have a locker, and there is resistance on one wheel, that will with turn anyway. Traction = resistance. Resistance = stress. Too much stress = broken parts.

With an open diff, sure you can still break an axle. It happens a lot. But it's not from driving down a parkway, either. It's because the resistance was more than the axle could handle.

It's not rocket science.

[Jupiter Rover]

i understand.. this doesn't sound so complicated to me, and i don't even have lockers...

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by 1hank1

5-minutes fix, huh. lol

Now you are talking about parts of the lockers inside the diff. No it is not 5 minutes to remove a diff. But it must have been caused by it being incorrectly installed, not really a fault of the locker.

But I bet he drove it home. Couldn't do that when a part inside the diff goes on a DT.

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by 1hank1

Point being, there is more parts to an ARB. You posted the DT diagram. It's one unit encased inside of a 3rd member. The ARB has lots of parts; 3x as many as a DT. Meaning, since you're too stupid to understand it, the ARB has more parts to fail..

Have you counted the parts?
If you actually have a look, in the actual parts that have any drive applied to them, there is only ONE more part in an ARB locker over a conventional diff.
A part has to have force (drive) applied to it to break. How many parts having force applied to them in an ARB locker when it is locked?. Could it be again one. Now how many drive parts are there in a DT when I want the thing locked?

Originally Posted by 1hank1

Sure, an air line is easy. But, are you carrying extra pumps? Extra solenoids? Extra O-rings? Extra copper line?..

I thought I was a moron for saying that an air line was easy to fix. Now you seem to agree with me.
What you are saying is that a fan belt or a radiator hose is hard to fix when you don't have a spare one. How many here go anywhere remote without a spare fan belt or hose.
An ARB compressor will usually start playing up rather than pack up completely. So you often have good warning that it is time to have a look at it. Mine is 9 years old and I have never had an issue with it.
Again the solenoids have never packed up in 9 years. But as I have 2 (front and rear), if one packs up I can choose which locker I want to work and connect the good solenoid to that locker.
I am still not sure what "O" ring you are talking about. If it is the one inside the diff that seals the air when it is transferred in to the rotating part of the centre, these are long life items. Again, they tend not to go suddenly, they usually give a long warning that they need to be replaced. Again, never had one fail, never had to replace one.
Still can't work out how the copper line inside the diff failed, except for poor installation.

Originally Posted by 1hank1

The O-ring is the VERY MOST COMMON part that fails on the ARB's. But from your response above, it's clear that you have no idea how O-rings there are or where they're located. Go look it up now, so you seem smart to yourself, then come back here and tell us it's a 5-minute fix. Better yet, post some pictures of your spare O-rings on the hood of your truck!

Again, there are a number of "O" rings.
Define "Common".
I have never had one fail. I am not aware of anyone that uses the right oil and conducts normal maintenance have one fail. They will usually last the life of the diff bearings. So when you take the diff apart to replace bearings you replace the "O" ring that I think you are talking about. But if you have had them fail, maybe you should look at how you set your diffs up and what oil you are using.

Originally Posted by 1hank1

But the common "shock overload" breakage that IS common when DT when a stock axle fails will still allow you to drive the truck.

Finally an admission that breakages in a DT are "common". Now you are making an assumption that the broken axle caused the diff to fail. Are you sure that simply a shock loading suffiecient to break a axle will also break a DT. Next time you have one break, look at what side of the DT destroyed itself. Was it the side that still had the good axle (your theory) or the one on the side that had the had the broken axle (my point).

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by 1hank1

The open diff truck will likely loose traction way before a locked truck will. That's a no brainier. So, tat mean more stress will be placed on the axles.

Remember, in an open diff, the power goes to the point of least resistance. If you have a locker, and there is resistance on one wheel, that will with turn anyway. Traction = resistance. Resistance = stress. Too much stress = broken parts.

With an open diff, sure you can still break an axle. It happens a lot. But it's not from driving down a parkway, either. It's because the resistance was more than the axle could handle.

It's not rocket science.

Do you even know what the most common reason for a broken axle is. Could it be shock loading?
So I repeat the question in a manner you might understand.
Two vehicles going up a hill, one with a locker, one without. On that hill there is a spot that will cause at least 1 wheel to break traction.
The open diff vehicle tackles the hill. Without the diff lock he has to have enough momentum to get past the point with no traction. So he is going faster and harder than the vehicle with the diff lock. He then hits the point with poor traction, one wheel starts spinning. As you said, all the power of the car is going to that spinning wheel. The car clears the slippery bit and that wheel suddenly gets traction again. Big shock loading with a lot more power being delivered to the wheel involved.
Now you are telling me that the guy with the locker that takes it nice an easy (as that is all he has to do to get up the hill) is going to place more stress on the axles that the guy with open diffs. Sounds logical to me!!!

[1hank1]

Have you counted the parts?
If you actually have a look, in the actual parts that have any drive applied to them, there is only ONE more part in an ARB locker over a conventional diff.
A part has to have force (drive) applied to it to break. How many parts having force applied to them in an ARB locker when it is locked?. Could it be again one. Now how many drive parts are there in a DT when I want the thing locked?

Jesus. Did your mother have any kids that lived, Ian?

I thought I was a moron for saying that an air line was easy to fix. Now you seem to agree with me.

Again, you're too fucking stupid to understand what I said.

An ARB compressor will usually start playing up rather than pack up completely. So you often have good warning that it is time to have a look at it. Mine is 9 years old and I have never had an issue with it.

This is utter bullshit, Ian. You should know better.

Again the solenoids have never packed up in 9 years. But as I have 2 (front and rear), if one packs up I can choose which locker I want to work and connect the good solenoid to that locker.

Again, you're a dumbass. This was a trick question for you. You fell directly into it.

Anyone who has ran the ARBs for any time at all know that the stock solenoids are crap. It's just another electric part to fail. And they do fail. No warning, they just fail.

Anyone who has had ARBs installed for any time junks the solenoid and installs a pneumatic switch. The pneumatic switches last a lifetime. There are no working parts. It's idiot proof. It's simple. It does not break.

I am still not sure what "O" ring you are talking about. If it is the one inside the diff that seals the air when it is transferred in to the rotating part of the centre, these are long life items.

Yet again you do not know shit. You say "if it's the ONE inside the diff". There is only one? lol...

And "lifetime items????? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

You're a complete idiot, Ian.

Again, they tend not to go suddenly, they usually give a long warning that they need to be replaced.

Hahahahhahahahahahaha. A O-ring does not go suddenly? It just leaks a little bit of air every now and then, right? lol.

Jesus.

Again, never had one fail, never had to replace one.

Because you don't do anything in your truck, Ian. Are you sure you even have a truck? I still have not seen pics...... We're waiting.

Still can't work out how the copper line inside the diff failed, except for poor installation.

Yeah, very well could be install related. But in this case, no, its not. That diff i John Whites truck has been installed for over 50,000 miles. Install error is likely not the case here.

Keep trying, Ian. It's entertaining.

Again, there are a number of "O" rings.
Define "Common".

Again, I'll ask you. How many O-ring as in your set up? Name them!

Again, go look it up so you seem smart to yourself.

I have never had one fail. I am not aware of anyone that uses the right oil and conducts normal maintenance have one fail. They will usually last the life of the diff bearings. So when you take the diff apart to replace bearings you replace the "O" ring that I think you are talking about. But if you have had them fail, maybe you should look at how you set your diffs up and what oil you are using.

Again, you refer to "the O-ring". "The" means 1 in this case. Again, you're showing your ass here.

Still, you claim that the O-rings last the life of the locker. LOLOLOLOLOL.

How I set up my diffs is going to determine how long the O-rings last????? Oh damn. You're even more clueless than I first thought. It's wildly apparent you have no clue how these lockers work.

Finally an admission that breakages in a DT are "common".

You're putting words in my mouth, Ian. Is this the only way you're going to make a point?

What I said was, WHEN A STOCK AXLE BREAKS, IT'S COMMON TO BUST THE DT. Anyone who is not a dumbass installs HD axles with their locker, no matter if it's a DT, ARB, SPOOL, etc..... So, breaking a DT is NOT common. But when a stock axle breaks, it's common to bust the DT.

See if you can twist that up some other way to fit your story.

Now you are making an assumption that the broken axle caused the diff to fail. Are you sure that simply a shock loading sufficient to break a axle will also break a DT. Next time you have one break, look at what side of the DT destroyed itself. Was it the side that still had the good axle (your theory) or the one on the side that had the had the broken axle (my point).

[/quote]

It does not matter what side of the DT breaks. It was caused for some complete dumbass running stocks axles with a locker. It's not the diffs fault the axle broke.

Show me a locker that broke just because!!! I know full well you cannot. You may say you can, but you better be able to back that shit up, because if you can't, you'll only be left looking like a dumbass yet again.

[1hank1]

Do you even know what the most common reason for a broken axle is. Could it be shock loading?

Sure, that is very possiable. No one said otherwise.

So I repeat the question in a manner you might understand.
Two vehicles going up a hill, one with a locker, one without. On that hill there is a spot that will cause at least 1 wheel to break traction.
The open diff vehicle tackles the hill. Without the diff lock he has to have enough momentum to get past the point with no traction. So he is going faster and harder than the vehicle with the diff lock. He then hits the point with poor traction, one wheel starts spinning. As you said, all the power of the car is going to that spinning wheel. The car clears the slippery bit and that wheel suddenly gets traction again. Big shock loading with a lot more power being delivered to the wheel involved.
Now you are telling me that the guy with the locker that takes it nice an easy (as that is all he has to do to get up the hill) is going to place more stress on the axles that the guy with open diffs. Sounds logical to me!!!

Yes, that sounds very logical. It happens, too. What you fail to understand with your very own logic is that speed and a heavy foot are involved.

Picture yourself here in this picture:


As you can see, both rear wheels are climbing a tall wall. The Pass side wheel is in kind of a tight spot, too. You're not going to "floor" your throttle to get out of this. Here, a stock axle with a locker will break in a Rover. I'll put $1,000.00 on it. It's just too much traction on the Pass tire.

With a open diff, the Pass side tire would never begin to turn. It's got way too much traction.

Now if you have HD axles and a locker, it's possiable to get up this ledge.

Well, at least JP made it up


Others were not so lucky

[Jupiter Rover]

dun dun dunnnnnnn

cool pics. hank, why do you like the DT/ARB instead of ARB/ARB

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by 1hank1

Again, you're a dumbass. This was a trick question for you. You fell directly into it.

Anyone who has ran the ARBs for any time at all know that the stock solenoids are crap. It's just another electric part to fail. And they do fail. No warning, they just fail.

Anyone who has had ARBs installed for any time junks the solenoid and installs a pneumatic switch. The pneumatic switches last a lifetime. There are no working parts. It's idiot proof. It's simple. It does not break..

The problem with tricks is that they come back and bite you.
I have never had one fail. I know many people with ARB lockers and may have heard of one failing. But as I said, big deal if it does fail, I run a single locker instead of two. I can still choose which one I want to work.

You just keeping on missing the point. An ARB locker not working due to ANY of the faults you mention is not a big deal. It simple means that the vehicle handles and drives like a stock vehicle. Your DT breaks and your in the shit.

Originally Posted by 1hank1

Yet again you do not know shit. You say "if it's the ONE inside the diff". There is only one? lol..

You keep on falling into your own traps. I don't have to do anything. Strip down the compressor and tell me how many "O" rings you find. You say none, well you will have you understanding of ARB locker systems expanded by at least 100%.

Originally Posted by 1hank1

And "lifetime items????? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

You're a complete idiot, Ian.

There is a big difference between "long life" and "lifetime". Do you even know what the "O" ring is made of or what oil you should use to extend the life of it? You make out it is a common "O" ring made of rubber. But it must be true as you are the ARB expert.

Originally Posted by 1hank1

Hahahahhahahahahahaha. A O-ring does not go suddenly? It just leaks a little bit of air every now and then, right? lol.

Jesus..

It is like any seal, it is not going to suddenly blow out (it can't). It just seals a little less well. Just like the "O" ring in your compressor. In good shape the ARB compressor will hold its pressure for days. Then you start to notice that it will fire up every few hours to top up pressure, and then every few minutes, etc, etc. But if you want to ignore signs that something needs maintenance, then don't complain if it ceases to work.

Originally Posted by 1hank1

Yeah, very well could be install related. But in this case, no, its not. That diff i John Whites truck has been installed for over 50,000 miles. Install error is likely not the case here.

Installs it too close to moving parts, it will take time for it to wear through. So if it wasn't an install issue, what caused it to fail?

Originally Posted by 1hank1

How I set up my diffs is going to determine how long the O-rings last????? Oh damn. You're even more clueless than I first thought. It's wildly apparent you have no clue how these lockers work..

Maybe this is why you have had them fail as you don't know what you should be doing when you install them.

Originally Posted by 1hank1

It does not matter what side of the DT breaks. It was caused for some complete dumbass running stocks axles with a locker. It's not the diffs fault the axle broke...

Running for cover again. Admitting you don't know how to determine why it broke. But as I have said, and what started this current debate, is that you cannot run stock axles with a DT as they place too much stress on them. At least you are admitting I was right.

Originally Posted by 1hank1

Show me a locker that broke just because!!! I know full well you cannot. You may say you can, but you better be able to back that shit up, because if you can't, you'll only be left looking like a dumbass yet again.

Open your eyes. I have posted the photo twice now in this thread. What more do you want.

A DT is designed to drive through one axle at a time. This is the only way it can drive (other than a straight line). But you claim that an axle breaking destroys the diff. Why is this any different to a wheel suddenly losing traction and putting all the drive to the other wheel.

Can't wait for you next response. It is just like shooting fish in a barrel.

[1hank1]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

The problem with tricks is that they come back and bite you.
I have never had one fail. I know many people with ARB lockers and may have heard of one failing. But as I said, big deal if it does fail, I run a single locker instead of two. I can still choose which one I want to work.

You just keeping on missing the point. An ARB locker not working due to ANY of the faults you mention is not a big deal. It simple means that the vehicle handles and drives like a stock vehicle. Your DT breaks and your in the shit.




You keep on falling into your own traps. I don't have to do anything. Strip down the compressor and tell me how many "O" rings you find. You say none, well you will have you understanding of ARB locker systems expanded by at least 100%.


There is a big difference between "long life" and "lifetime". Do you even know what the "O" ring is made of or what oil you should use to extend the life of it? You make out it is a common "O" ring made of rubber. But it must be true as you are the ARB expert.


It is like any seal, it is not going to suddenly blow out (it can't). It just seals a little less well. Just like the "O" ring in your compressor. In good shape the ARB compressor will hold its pressure for days. Then you start to notice that it will fire up every few hours to top up pressure, and then every few minutes, etc, etc. But if you want to ignore signs that something needs maintenance, then don't complain if it ceases to work.


Installs it too close to moving parts, it will take time for it to wear through. So if it wasn't an install issue, what caused it to fail?


Maybe this is why you have had them fail as you don't know what you should be doing when you install them.


Running for cover again. Admitting you don't know how to determine why it broke. But as I have said, and what started this current debate, is that you cannot run stock axles with a DT as they place too much stress on them. At least you are admitting I was right.


Open your eyes. I have posted the photo twice now in this thread. What more do you want.

A DT is designed to drive through one axle at a time. This is the only way it can drive (other than a straight line). But you claim that an axle breaking destroys the diff. Why is this any different to a wheel suddenly losing traction and putting all the drive to the other wheel.

Can't wait for you next response. It is just like shooting fish in a barrel.

Again, Ian. You've avoided everything I've mentioned. The only comment you came back with that has not already been answered over and over and over again was this:

Open your eyes. I have posted the photo twice now in this thread. What more do you want.

So, tell me, Ian.
1) Who's DT is this?
2) How did it break?
3) Where did it break (location of wheeling area.)

..........as we still wait for Ian's pictures of his truck.

Actually, lets see your ARB install, Ian. Where is your pump located?

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by 1hank1

As you can see, both rear wheels are climbing a tall wall. The Pass side wheel is in kind of a tight spot, too. You're not going to "floor" your throttle to get out of this. Here, a stock axle with a locker will break in a Rover. I'll put $1,000.00 on it. It's just too much traction on the Pass tire.

With a open diff, the Pass side tire would never begin to turn. It's got way too much traction.

Now if you have HD axles and a locker, it's possiable to get up this ledge.

Are you saying that a stock rover with open diffs could drive that ledge?
I am not saying that stock axles will never break. They do if you don't drive correctly and we all know that. But you are saying that the simple fact of adding a locker, and using it, will break axles. What I continue to state is that in the same track (that is driveable by an open diff vehicle) a vehicle with diff locks will place less stress on the drive train than one with open diffs.

Showing pictures of your rock crawling mates does little to prove your point. You just look for an excuse to post pictures that you think are good. I already know that my dick is bigger than yours.

[1hank1]

Originally Posted by Jupiter Rover

dun dun dunnnnnnn

cool pics. hank, why do you like the DT/ARB instead of ARB/ARB

Don't get me wrong, ARB/ARB is pretty badass. I like it a lot. But the DT/ARB combo is just a little more simple. XM touched on this earlier. The ARB has a lot of moving parts. Blown O-rings are common. Poor installs are even more common. Regardless, if you're out in the middle of no where and you loose a pump, etc... the DT is fail safe.

The pictures moron #1 posted are not common at all. That's an extreme break. The only other time I've seen a DT break, or heard of for that matter, is when a stock axle breaks first. And, the truth be known, that is what happened to the broken locker pic P76 posted.

Personally, I'd rather have the ARB/ARB. But if this were something I were building for someone else, I'd do the DT/ARB.