PROCOMP shocks

[p76rangie]

Rovernit, You are right. You only wanted to know about shocks. But you wanted to know what size to get. What size is dependant on your suspension set-up. Here are some photos of D2's I go out with. All have larger than 34 inch Simex tyres. None have a 4 inch lift. They are 50mm or less. None have had to trim the guards, but did have to trim a bit of plastic near the sills.

[ROVERNIT]

your second picture explains it but have a look at this web http://www.slunnie.com/coppermine/th...s.php?album=90

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by ROVERNIT

your second picture explains it but have a look at this web http://www.slunnie.com/coppermine/th...s.php?album=90

I am well aware of what Slunnie has done to his Disco. I actually thought that he had pulled the 4 inch lift back out. It is also only a 4 inch lift if the ride height is 4 inches above standard. He lost an inch or so of this change in springs due to the extra weight of the vehicle. You will note that to fit 35's you have to start cutting guards. You have said that you did not want to cut and that the max to plan to fit are 34's. I keep on coming back to the fact that you do not need a 4 inch lift to fit 34's.

[ROVERNIT]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

I am well aware of what Slunnie has done to his Disco. I actually thought that he had pulled the 4 inch lift back out. It is also only a 4 inch lift if the ride height is 4 inches above standard. He lost an inch or so of this change in springs due to the extra weight of the vehicle. You will note that to fit 35's you have to start cutting guards. You have said that you did not want to cut and that the max to plan to fit are 34's. I keep on coming back to the fact that you do not need a 4 inch lift to fit 34's.

IMO lifts are not just to fit bigger wheels, articulation that's more important to me not just big wheels

and thats what my project is all about articulation having all four wheels on the ground

besided with the 33 I feel a diffenece in the gear ratio let alone 35 not to say that I wont do it its a possibility and with this lift it will allow me to I mean you never know I might feel that I need flares and bigger wheels as the next thing to modify after the suspension, the bar and lockers

with Slunnie car he sits probibly around the 3 to 3.5 over standard Ive chosen softer spring so really mine should sit around the same more the 3.5 mark

time will tell

[ROVERNIT]

Dont take me wrong Im not claiming to know it all instead I know very little when it comes to rover I have had many idea that have been squashed by slunnie and the like and it has taken me so much research to get to where I am its not an over night dream as you may think

what are the results of all these part that I have bought and will buy who know, no body, it has been done with similar gear but not extactly im taking someones idea and adding more so it may need adjusting here and there but thats fine Im willing

[p76rangie]

Heavier springs will not increase articulation. Without extra weight in the vehicle, they will reduce it. With extra weight, it may be the same. I thought Slunnie had actually sold his Disco, but I may be wrong.
His springs were also custom made and were not off the shelf. He also retained progessive springs to maintain articulation.

[ROVERNIT]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

Heavier springs will not increase articulation. Without extra weight in the vehicle, they will reduce it. With extra weight, it may be the same. I thought Slunnie had actually sold his Disco, but I may be wrong.
His springs were also custom made and were not off the shelf. He also retained progessive springs to maintain articulation.

my spring are not of the shelf there are custom like his except there Dobinson not lovels

[p76rangie]

Rovernit, Just did a bit of a survey with the guys running 34's on DII's. They appear to run between a 25mm and 50mm spring lift. But the spring lifts are not to fit the bigger tyres, they are more to centre up the uspension. That is, the diff will still hit the bump stops from time to time and therefore at this point they are the same height as standard suspension. The compression rates you quote for the rear appear in the ball park if you are not planning to load the thing up to the gills for extended outback touring. However, the guys run between 150lb and 190lb in the front, depending on what they have hanging off the front. So your front springs are likely to reduce your articulation due to their lack of compression.

Many of the after market shocks, eg Koni, are already longer than standard and will allow some extra wheel travel without modifying shock mounts. But as stated previously, if you want to go for even longer shocks, you should raise the uppper shock mounts so that you can still achieve full movement upwards of the axle. Otherwise the longer closed length of the shock will cause issues.

A 4 inch lift will offer no real advantages off-road, except maybe a slightly better approach and departure angle. However, such a lift will significantly increase the risk of roll-over due to raising the centre of gravity. You will really notice a 4 inch lift on sideways stability. Sideways stability is more often an issue off-road than the improvement you may get from approach and departure angles. The approach and departure issues can be resolved more appropriately with well designed front and rear bars.

I keep on coming back to, check what you are trying to achieve. Then only do what you need to in order to achieve that goal. Modification for modification sake will not give you a better vehicle for what you do or wish to do.

A high lift makes it too easy to move from this to that (I am not suggesting that the Disco on its side was a result of a spring lift, only that there is often a fine balance between what will go over and what stays on its wheels)

[ROVERNIT]

OK here is my come bank and Im enjoying your devil advocate

Originally Posted by p76rangie

Rovernit, Just did a bit of a survey with the guys running 34's on DII's. They appear to run between a 25mm and 50mm spring lift. But the spring lifts are not to fit the bigger tyres, they are more to centre up the uspension. That is, the diff will still hit the bump stops from time to time and therefore at this point they are the same height as standard suspension. The compression rates you quote for the rear appear in the ball park if you are not planning to load the thing up to the gills for extended outback touring. However, the guys run between 150lb and 190lb in the front, depending on what they have hanging off the front. So your front springs are likely to reduce your articulation due to their lack of compression.

I disagree strongly here as if a standard spring create a gab between the diff and bump stop of X measurement then a 4 inch lift will creat a gab measurement of Y now X does nto equal Y besides if this where the case Slunnies would of not had the exrend his bump stops

Originally Posted by p76rangie

Many of the after market shocks, eg Koni, are already longer than standard and will allow some extra wheel travel without modifying shock mounts. But as stated previously, if you want to go for even longer shocks, you should raise the uppper shock mounts so that you can still achieve full movement upwards of the axle. Otherwise the longer closed length of the shock will cause issues.

I was advise that an of the shelf bilstein made for 2 inch lift would either require extension or lowered shock mounts So no disagree its cheaper to get longer shocks then lowered shock mounts

Originally Posted by p76rangie

A 4 inch lift will offer no real advantages off-road, except maybe a slightly better approach and departure angle. However, such a lift will significantly increase the risk of roll-over due to raising the centre of gravity. You will really notice a 4 inch lift on sideways stability. Sideways stability is more often an issue off-road than the improvement you may get from approach and departure angles. The approach and departure issues can be resolved more appropriately with well designed front and rear bars.

Yes it will have considerable amount advantage and disadvantage in the wrong hands yes more of wheel travel which we disagree on RE bump stops by extended rear ACE links and a watt linkage yes these are things that can be done to 2 inch but bump stop wheel travel will reduce

Originally Posted by p76rangie

I keep on coming back to, check what you are trying to achieve. Then only do what you need to in order to achieve that goal. Modification for modification sake will not give you a better vehicle for what you do or wish to do. .

you see where we differ in opinion is that you claim that wheel travel we not be any better then standard I disagree again back to the bump stop issue

Originally Posted by p76rangie

A high lift makes it too easy to move from this to that (I am not suggesting that the Disco on its side was a result of a spring lift, only that there is often a fine balance between what will go over and what stays on its wheels)

from the pictures shown it seems to me driver error more then anything


I havent seen you arrounf on the AULROC why is that

[ROVERNIT]

P76Rangie I thought I would run things by Slunnie

he stated your wrong on every count wrong wrong wrong

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by ROVERNIT

from the pictures shown it seems to me driver error more then anything.

I havent seen you arrounf on the AULROC why is that

You will not always pick the best line, or even if you do, you might not be able to achieve it. I only know of one person that intentially rolls his vehicle. So any roll over is driver error.

You mentioning AULROC explains where you are getting your ideas from. I know people who are members of that forum. I have gone out with other members of that forum. They tend to make a relatively easy track look very hard.

[Slunnie]

I thought that I’d better respond seeming as my name is now in here. It’s late, I’m tired and so I’ll be brief. I wont be quoting either, again because its late, I’m tired and so it’ll be brief!

4” lift. I run it, I’ve designed it, I’ve sorted it and I’ve tested it over the last stack of years. I did it when everybody was saying that you couldn’t do it. That was my challenge and I think that I cracked it. If I sound like I know what I’m talking about that’s why. If I sound incoherent and unintelligible, then that’s because its late….. you get the picture.

Under the Disco there is no rocket science, but it is critical to understand the reactions that changes to certain components and also their interrelationships between the other components and the effects these have on performance. Many of the people into good lifts are also US based, and it is also important to realise that there will be inconsistencies in the suspension limitations due to different chassis designs between NAS and Aus spec vehicles, notably in the front suspension geography. Please note that I’m coming from an RHD perspective.

The base vehicle is a TD5 Auto ACE with coils all round for me. Its lifted 4” over standard and 70mm over the maximum specified ride height from the factory – this is a critical difference when you’re talking legalities. Increase in ride height is limited in NSW to 1/3 travel metal to metal of suspension travel, and this equates to 70mm on the Disco2. This is why it is a totally 100% legal 4” suspension lift on a Disco2. Many will say it is not legal as it is 4”, but this is not the case at all. In NSW at least I have had the RTA engineering signatories sign it off as being good and likewise the blue rego slip that is required with it without any problems at all. Insurance through 4WD brokers such as TCIS and DGA are perfectly happy with it as it is legal and roadworthy.

Nutshell stuff now.

With the shocks there is no need to move the shock mounts at the front. Don’t move it down as you are then restricted to pretty much standard wheel travel. Don’t move them up as the 655mm shocks will bottom at about the same time as spring bind. Bump stop extensions are there to prevent shock damage, not to limit wheel travel. If you go over a 10” shock the ACE hydraulic will hit the panhard chassis mount.

Rear shocks again are bump stops to suit longer shocks, that is all. If you go over 655mm open length or approx 10” travel you will also have to modify the watts link for more travel.

Propshaft does not need updating, although greasable units can be more durable if maintained properly.

Disco2 does not have swivel hubs, and I suspect runs a lot more castor than the classic coil landys and so even at 4” you can get away with no castor correction. Classic coil Landys are a very different suspension setup to the Disco2 despite some basic design similarities

Police have never said boo to me about the suspension lift, even when running 35” Simex. If engineer approved it is all legal anyway.

4” lift springs with stiffer spring rates 230lb/inF and 300-340lb/in R will run a shock that is about 3” longer in open length than standard (655mm). If you run these springs with longer than 10” 655mm open shocks you will need to retain the springs, and these springs settle to 4” lift.

Tyres that are larger than 33” is a Victorian rule and does not apply to the rest of Australia. NSW isn’t under the NCOP rules at this time either.

The D2 wont run any tyre marked 34”, it will run the 33” Simex which may measure at the crown 34”. The treadface is curved due to the bias construction which creates this measurement. You wont fit any radial tyre larger than a 265/75-16 (32”) without rubbing.

4” longer and heavier springs will give more than 4” lift. They’ll be closer to 3” longer.

Spring rates don’t alter suspension travel, they will however affect static articulation.

Repositioning shocks is a dodgy pommy invention – longer shocks is doing it properly and allowing use of the extra suspension travel that is available from the lift.

The 4” lift despite the stiffer rates gives more travel, more articulation, more ground clearance in the front, back and belly and allows bigger tyres to be run. My setup with an empty car ramps about RTI850 on a 20 degree ramp. I doubt very much many if any shelf 2” lifts will do that. Customs may do with a light rate.

It will also allow true 33” tyres such as the 255/85-16 and 285/75-16 without scrubbing, not to mention Simex 33x10.5 without scrubbing and Simex 34x11.5 JT2 without scrubbing – these measure at the crown 35.2” and are 12” wide. Definitely in NSW, Aus that type of clearance is very very useful!

All of those D2’s are wearing 33x10.5 Simex JT2’s.

The pic of the LRTD-5 is showing the limited suspension travel of a 2” setup, not anything flexy at all.

PROCOMP shocks

This is what the above setup will produce with an empty light vehicle (bar, winch, sliders only) – a lot more flex on a 30 degree ramp.




These are with the 34x11.5” (35’s) Simex sitting in a rut.





I don’t think 2” give the above level of travel.

The 4” lift is still well and truly in there. I’ve just freshened it all up.

The 4” springs sit at 4” with the normal stuff in it. With the polyairs it now stays at 4” when loaded (I’ve fixed a lopsided problem too!)

Absolutely to fit 35’s you’ll need to cut guards! Also any radial larger than a 33”

Heavier springs will reduce articulation, but 2” lifts articulate onto the bumpstops which causes a greater loss or articulation. You can also get some articulation back by running the spring looser in the perch (though not unretained) through the correct shock length choices.

I’ve still got the Disco and we’re still giving each other greif!

If big tyres fit with a 2” lift, they will fit with no lift – its just the amount of rubbing that changes. A 4” lift actually lets you run bigger rubber.

If anyone thinks a 4” lift offers no real advantages off road then you really need to drive one! It makes a big difference – at least on the tracks that I drive it does.

A 4” lift does not significantly increase the risk of a roll over. It does raise the CofG but it is not a significant increase. The side angle that the vehicle will perform is still very good. I have not seen a tough 2” lifted Rover, they are all 4” lifted be it through springs or 2” springs + 2” body and they do it very happily. Many go wider for exstra stability in comps etc also.

This picture is also tilted and I would expect the same result from a 4” Disco. The pic below is driver error and probably most 4WD’s would have done the same irrespective of lift.

PROCOMP shocks



Goodnight

Slunnie

[ROVERNIT]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

You will not always pick the best line, or even if you do, you might not be able to achieve it. I only know of one person that intentially rolls his vehicle. So any roll over is driver error.

You mentioning AULROC explains where you are getting your ideas from. I know people who are members of that forum. I have gone out with other members of that forum. They tend to make a relatively easy track look very hard.

Whats that suppose to mean about AULROC, oh youve been kicked out havent you

I admit there are few out there that dont venture out there drive way and talk like there they know it all

come on spill the beans

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by Slunnie

Bump stop extensions are there to prevent shock damage, not to limit wheel travel. If you go over a 10” shock the ACE hydraulic will hit the panhard chassis mount.Rear shocks again are bump stops to suit longer shocks, that is all. If you go over 655mm open length or approx 10” travel you will also have to modify the watts link for more travel.

This is just playing on words. Saying it is not there to restrict wheel movement, but then saying that if you don't restrict the wheel movement you will bugger the shocks.

Originally Posted by Slunnie

Police have never said boo to me about the suspension lift, even when running 35” Simex. If engineer approved it is all legal anyway.

The 35's cannot be engineered approved anymore and your car is most likely now unroadworthy, even with the engineers certificate to the the size of the wheels. I am not sure whether you got the spring lift approved under the new or old laws. They are now national laws. Also Rovernit had not mentioned getting an Engineers certificate for the mods he was doing. The comment I previously made related to mods without an engineers certificate.

Originally Posted by Slunnie

4” lift springs with stiffer spring rates 230lb/inF and 300-340lb/in R will run a shock that is about 3” longer in open length than standard (655mm). If you run these springs with longer than 10” 655mm open shocks you will need to retain the springs, and these springs settle to 4” lift.

This is the point that I have been making. You have only picked up 2 inches in extra shock length. But this extra travel at the bottom has been negated by the drop in bump stops. Therefore you not gained any extra suspension travel.

Originally Posted by Slunnie

The D2 wont run any tyre marked 34”, it will run the 33” Simex which may measure at the crown 34”. The treadface is curved due to the bias construction which creates this measurement. You wont fit any radial tyre larger than a 265/75-16 (32”) without rubbing.

This is very much dependent on the rims you are running and what you class as rubbing. The 34's will rub slightly on full articulation.

Originally Posted by Slunnie

Spring rates don’t alter suspension travel, they will however affect static articulation.

Have to disagree strongly on that one. Physically and technically impossible. You have proved it yourself in your statements above.

Originally Posted by Slunnie

A 4” lift does not significantly increase the risk of a roll over. It does raise the CofG but it is not a significant increase. The side angle that the vehicle will perform is still very good. I have not seen a tough 2” lifted Rover, they are all 4” lifted be it through springs or 2” springs + 2” body and they do it very happily. Many go wider for exstra stability in comps etc also..

Sorry must strongly disagree with this one also. Even though it is not a disco, I have basically increased the height of my Rangie in 1 inch intervals. The difference in stability was very noticeable with each increase. Countered some of this by increasing the track.

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by ROVERNIT

Whats that suppose to mean about AULROC, oh youve been kicked out havent you

I have never been a member of the AULRO forum.