Spring dislocation cones

[fivespddisco]

Originally Posted by Nick Boy

Hello again,

We have drawn the conclusion that dislocation cones are something Land Rover really should have included as standard on the defender model (and probably others too) we need to get some in the California area, does anyone know any good off roading shops to get some (too expensive and risky to manufacture ourselves, and too much of a pain to cart them out to the States from UK). Preferably in the Los Angeles/ Southern California area.


Many Thanks,


Nick and the Lone Wolf Transglobal team

Just for the record 76 he asked where to get cones not for your misguided opinion.


Ps I used the car picture because i know you hate it.

[fivespddisco]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

I would not go in your vehicle on anything past the carpark.

that was funny ill give you that

[fivespddisco]

Originally Posted by DiscoAmigo

P76
Just to improve my own unerstanding, what is wrong with it? Thanks

Yes please tell use how more travel is bad? should we run sway bars ? are 10 spline better then 24? and last but not least more on the magic tires.

[TN-LR3]

I'm taking off my rear rovertym cones an putting back on my EE top spring retainers. I did take the sway bar off but I'm gonna put it back on and see how I like it. Honestly cones aren't really a way to show true flex,and they kindof scare the S(*t out of me on off camber situations

[cdcom]

Originally Posted by TN-LR3

I'm taking off my rear rovertym cones an putting back on my EE top spring retainers. I did take the sway bar off but I'm gonna put it back on and see how I like it. Honestly cones aren't really a way to show true flex,and they kindof scare the S(*t out of me on off camber situations

Just to chime in, this doesn't make sense to me.. Out of the factory flex is limited by shock length and/or sway bar, trailing arms etc... A dislocating spring is a result of having more flex than the spring is long.. I don't see how a stretched retained spring is more desirable as there would be negative down force on traction... So it's not a matter of TRUE flex but a matter of how much flex you are comfortable with..

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by cdcom

Just to chime in, this doesn't make sense to me.. Out of the factory flex is limited by shock length and/or sway bar, trailing arms etc

I think you are confusing design with limitations. Flex is not limited out of the factory, the suspension is designed to operate in a certain way based on the vehicle.

[fivespddisco]

Originally Posted by cdcom

Just to chime in, this doesn't make sense to me.. Out of the factory flex is limited by shock length and/or sway bar, trailing arms etc... A dislocating spring is a result of having more flex than the spring is long.. I don't see how a stretched retained spring is more desirable as there would be negative down force on traction... So it's not a matter of TRUE flex but a matter of how much flex you are comfortable with..

very well said.

76 rangie just hates cones. He can't understand how they work and so they must be bad. Im sure he still thinks the world is flat.

[SCSL]

Cones vs retained springs??

I'm having deja vu all over again...

[DiscoAmigo]

Originally Posted by DiscoAmigo

P76
Just to improve my own understanding, what is wrong with it? Thanks

I'm not trying to prove either side right or wrong in this discussion, so please don't interpret my question that way. I'm searching for the best offroad suspension setup and would like to hear firsthand experiences. Thank you

[p76rangie]

Let me see if I can get this right about how cones work.

Firstly, some clown thinks he can fit bigger tyres by a spring lift. The only thing is that a spring lift is completed by putting stiff springs in that do not want to compress. If they are not compressed, there is nothing to uncompress. So as soon as the wheel drops a little, the spring will become dislocated.

To fit the bigger tyres, this person again restricts the upward movement of the wheels by putting longer bump stops in.

Due to the axles now sitting much lower to the drive-train, he now has issues with the angle of the prop shafts. He then has to fit double cardon or high angle uni-joints in, but will still have to live with the vibrations.

Due the dropping of the diffs, the castor is now stuffed on the front of the car, along with the steering and handling. He has to use bent trailing arms, which will make the angle on the prop shafts even worse, or get the swivels redrilled and moved around.

Now because he has lost all upward movement of the suspension through the stiff springs and lowered bump stops, he tries to make up for it by getting the wheels to drop further. He calls this flex. To do this he has to upgrade the rear trailing arms to angled ones so they will drop further. But of course as the springs have unloaded some time ago, there is little or no weight on the wheels so there is little or no traction provided by them.

The rear axle is now on so much of an angle that the wheel that still has grip is on a bad angle and trying to drive around things and not over them. There is a lot of pressure on the tyre pushing from the inside out as it tries to stop itself sliding down the hill. The only thing is that any devices to hold the tyre on the rim (eg bead locks or the ridge on the rim) are on the outside of the rim. They are designed to hold the tyre on the rim from pressure being applied from the outside in, not the inside out. So the angle of the flex causes the tyre to come off the inside of the rim. Flat tyre, now no traction at all and your stuffed. Because of the angle of the car and the way you have designed it for the axles to free fall, you have no way of jacking the car up to change the tyre and no way of driving anywhere.

The space in the wheel arches allow bigger tyres to move up and down easily and still to tuck in a at a bit of an angle due to the the opposite wheel droping. But put as much movement in as 5speed and you then have to modify things to stop the wheels taking out the inside of the guards. You either have to make up new inners for the rear guards or try to stop it by offsetting the rims. There is not much you can do on the front, due to the shock towers. That is why multi-point front suspension has never really taken off.

This whole thing could have been avoided by a body lift and some wheel arch cutting to fit the larger tyres

Obviously Landrover engineers do not know how to design suspension and your modifications work great. Just stay away from my Rangie.

[cellulararrest]

Sounds like you need to stay away from your Rangie.

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by DiscoAmigo

I'm not trying to prove either side right or wrong in this discussion, so please don't interpret my question that way. I'm searching for the best offroad suspension setup and would like to hear firsthand experiences. Thank you

For some idependent advice. the following is taken from the website of a company that have been modifying Rangies for longer than they have been available in the US. I have also attached a link to spring specs and sizes for Rangies/Discos.

"Land Rover's are still the best riding 4WD on the market. The suspension geometry is superior to all current and past 4WD's up to date. The success of the Land Rover suspension is the ability to articulate or cross the axles keeping all four wheels on the ground giving the vehicle maximum drive and traction with an extremely comfortable ride.

Springs are not used in Land Rovers as a handling component but more for load carrying and height adjustment. Setting up a vehicles suspension is as individual as the drivers.

Springs need to be chosen to suit the vehicles load carrying requirements and height requirements and the vehicles use. The choice of a coil springs also needs to take into account the amount of wheel travel the vehicle has.

The maximum bump stop gaps for standard vehicles, without causing steering problems or vibrations, are as follows.

VEHICLE.............................FRONT......... ........REAR

Range Rover.........................3.5"................ 5" - 5.5"
Discovery I, II & III................3.5"...............4" - 4.5"
Defender & County................3.5"...............4" - 4.5"

As a rule of thumb, in regards to wheel articulation most testing is done on an articulation ramp. A vehicle with soft rated springs will do better then a vehicle with harder springs. It is our recommendation when a vehicle is at full articulation on a fixed ramp and the unloaded wheel has broken traction the bump stop clearance on the upward axle should be 1" to 1.5". This will not win any articulation competitions but will work a lot better once the vehicle is moving. A moving vehicles momentum will allow the axle to move all the way to the bump stop. A softer sprung vehicle, which does well on a ramp, will bottom out hard bucking the vehicle causing the driver to have less control. Another thing to remember is when a vehicle is climbing or descending a lot of the vehicles weight will be transferred to either the rear or front. A correctly chosen spring should be able to handle the extra weight so the vehicle does not bottom out too easily. A correctly sprung vehicle has to be a compromise between on-road, off-road, normal driving, climbing, descending, articulation and handling."

http://members.shaw.ca/jbarge/springinfo.html

[Thor]

http://members.shaw.ca/jbarge/tires.html

your guy lists larger bump stops in his Disco I tyre fitting guide without seeming too upset. See 255/85 and 285/75.

It seems to me all this discussion comes down to terrain and how you'd like to navigate it. Look at rock crawlers, overland travel rigs, and baja type racers. They are all considered off-road vehicles, but they have very different goals, and different modifications to achieve them.

On other boards, years ago there was a more interesting retained v. dislocation cone discussion. They used trial scores and different obstacles to show where strengths and weaknesses lay. I can't for the life of me find it.

I've stayed retained, but have cones... I've considered un-retaining them for giggles, but until I do I don't know which I like best. My rig seems to run around pretty well as is.

[cdcom]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

Let me see if I can get this right about how cones work.

Firstly, some clown thinks he can fit bigger tyres by a spring lift. The only thing is that a spring lift is completed by putting stiff springs in that do not want to compress. If they are not compressed, there is nothing to uncompress. So as soon as the wheel drops a little, the spring will become dislocated.

To fit the bigger tyres, this person again restricts the upward movement of the wheels by putting longer bump stops in.

Due to the axles now sitting much lower to the drive-train, he now has issues with the angle of the prop shafts. He then has to fit double cardon or high angle uni-joints in, but will still have to live with the vibrations.

Due the dropping of the diffs, the castor is now stuffed on the front of the car, along with the steering and handling. He has to use bent trailing arms, which will make the angle on the prop shafts even worse, or get the swivels redrilled and moved around.

Now because he has lost all upward movement of the suspension through the stiff springs and lowered bump stops, he tries to make up for it by getting the wheels to drop further. He calls this flex. To do this he has to upgrade the rear trailing arms to angled ones so they will drop further. But of course as the springs have unloaded some time ago, there is little or no weight on the wheels so there is little or no traction provided by them.

The rear axle is now on so much of an angle that the wheel that still has grip is on a bad angle and trying to drive around things and not over them. There is a lot of pressure on the tyre pushing from the inside out as it tries to stop itself sliding down the hill. The only thing is that any devices to hold the tyre on the rim (eg bead locks or the ridge on the rim) are on the outside of the rim. They are designed to hold the tyre on the rim from pressure being applied from the outside in, not the inside out. So the angle of the flex causes the tyre to come off the inside of the rim. Flat tyre, now no traction at all and your stuffed. Because of the angle of the car and the way you have designed it for the axles to free fall, you have no way of jacking the car up to change the tyre and no way of driving anywhere.

The space in the wheel arches allow bigger tyres to move up and down easily and still to tuck in a at a bit of an angle due to the the opposite wheel droping. But put as much movement in as 5speed and you then have to modify things to stop the wheels taking out the inside of the guards. You either have to make up new inners for the rear guards or try to stop it by offsetting the rims. There is not much you can do on the front, due to the shock towers. That is why multi-point front suspension has never really taken off.

This whole thing could have been avoided by a body lift and some wheel arch cutting to fit the larger tyres

Obviously Landrover engineers do not know how to design suspension and your modifications work great. Just stay away from my Rangie.

Those same engineers also designed the body of your rangie to sit on the chassis at a particular height as well as the suspension and drive train to run a particular size tire....

You've done a good job of pointing out the pitfalls of off road vehicle modification but I'm assuming that one of the main purposes of this board is to share ideas about just that.. (are you using stock springs, with factory size tires??)

That being said, I'm pretty sure that Fivespeed wasn't advocating the use of cones to compensate for a bad suspension setup.. A bad set up is a bad setup whether you are retained or use cones..

[fivespddisco]

Originally Posted by Thor

http://members.shaw.ca/jbarge/tires.html


It seems to me all this discussion comes down to terrain and how you'd like to navigate it. Look at rock crawlers, overland travel rigs, and baja type racers. They are all considered off-road vehicles, but they have very different goals, and different modifications to achieve them.

.

A great point. for me on the east cost wide tires and lots of flex seems to work great. in the rock where tractions not as big of a problem but snapping diff and axles is. go with a thiner tire. the Iceland guys just cut the body out of the way and put super wide tires in because there trying to float. Our friend 76 only can see it from his way. my truck will out preform trucks in some stuff and get left behind in others. Its all in set up.