Engine Flush

[R_Lefebvre]

I was at Canadian Tire today and looked and they do have Rotella T 15W40. And then I remembered I think the reason I didn't buy it last time was because I thought that was a little thick for our cold weather at the time. And the owner's manual said "Use Castrol "something or other", if not available, use any Castrol 10W30. You must use engine oil with an A3/B3 rating." Which is a bit of an oxymoron, because no Castrol 10W30 is rated at A3/B3.

So anyway, I have that source. And I can get a 20L pail for $53 which is pretty good.

I also noticed they had Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec 5W50 that both had A3/B3. That looks like a good oil, but the viscosity doesn't match the owners manual.

Oh the Humanity!

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by R_Lefebvre

P76, do you have oil temperature vs. ambient temp data to back up your theory that the only thing that matters is viscosity vs. air temp? Because it seems like your simple way of looking at things, that's all that matters in your mind. So if you're so convinced by it, it must be for good reason right?

Do you know for a fact that when the ambient temps are hotter, the engine oil is also hotter and thus a heavier oil is required despite the fact that the engine is cooled to a set point by a thermostatically controlled radiator, which indirectly controls the oil temp?

If you rely on the owners manual as a bible, then why do you use oils outside of their recommended range?

Unlike others, I attempt to keep the discussion in terms that people can easily relate to. We can get into all the technical debate, as in the last thread on this topic, but if they stick to the basic rules that I set, they won't be far out.

Oil temp is not necessarily related to water temp on the motor. I can have my oil temp up very high when my water temp is sitting at 80C.

The manuals for the cars were mostly written before the modern oils were readily available. I do not recommend oils outside the recommended range. The recommended range deals with minimu levels. That is, for a certain minimum temperature you require a minimum xW rating. For a certain maximum temperature, you require a minimum xx rating. As long as you cover these minimum ranges, you are within the manufacturers specs.

For example, the spec for ambient temperature of 0C is 20W. Even though the temperature in my area would rarely ever go below this temperature, I run a 15W oil. So I am within spec by the manufacturers specs. I operate the vehicle in temperatures above 40C. By the manufacturer I require a 50 oil for this temp, as I run a 60, I am within their spec range.

The higher the viscosities of the oil the better sheer factors and other protection features. The only reason for going for a low xW rated oil in a rover V8 is to allow the oil to flow in cold ambient temperatures at startup. So I am not sure why you would recommend a 10w oil for a place like Florida as you are getting less protection for your engine compared to a 20w oil (of the same brand and type oil).

[Neo1975]

p76
It got down to almost -12C here this past winter, and can get up to over 37C during summer months. What do you think of Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic for these temperatures.
Thanks

Mobil 1 0W-40

[Elemental]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

The manuals for the cars were mostly written before the modern oils were readily available.

Spot on!
A can of 5-30 from brand x in 1990 is not the same as a can of 5-30 from the sam emanufacture today! ZDDP was higher years ago, and offered good sheer protection by offering a "Sacrifical lamb" coating on metal parts. That isnt the case today.

I would use 15-40 Rotella Year round, regardless of ambiant temp. To me, its the best all around choice for oil currently in a Flat tappet engine like a Land Rover.

[Elemental]

Originally Posted by Neo1975

p76
It got down to almost -12C here this past winter, and can get up to over 37C during summer months. What do you think of Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic for these temperatures.
Thanks

Mobil 1 0W-40

Excellent choice, if you ask me. Keep in Mind, not all Mobil One products are good for Rover engines. The 0-40 is...If you ask me.

But, you didnt.

[Neo1975]

Elemental
I did ask you about it, and do trust your input. That is why I have already bought the oil. P76 brought up some stuff that I haven't thought about as far as the way these things relate to temperature. I know that it is important but not exactly sure how the numbers relate to the temperatures. Just wondering what he had to say about it. Not second guessing you at all. I have the oil, just need to find the time to change it.
Thanks for the help.

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by Neo1975

p76
It got down to almost -12C here this past winter, and can get up to over 37C during summer months. What do you think of Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic for these temperatures.
Thanks

Mobil 1 0W-40

I will correct my previous posts in regard to the minimum temperatures that an oil is suited for. This link gives you the minimum temperatures that a "W" rated oil will function effectively at.
API Engine Oil Classifications For Service Fill Oils - SAE Viscosity Grades For Engine Oils
It shows that a 20W oil will cope with -20C temperatures. This is probably as cold as you will get in most places in the states.
The figures that I had previously quoted is what Landrover recommend, that is 20W where your weather doesn't go much below 0C and then work backwards from there. From memory, they drop 10C for every 5W. That is, -10C for 15W, -20C for 10W, -30C for 5W.
A lower viscosity oil, eg 15W or 10W, will flow better at the lower temperatures and will get through the motor a little quicker at start-up. But this has to be balanced against the protection qualities of the lower viscosity oils once the motor is running.
In a Rover V8, I can't see any reason to go below a 10W oil and I would think that in non-snow areas that a 15W oil would be better. Some modern hi-tech engines have other reasons for specifying low viscosity oils such as 5W, but the reasons for this are not applicable to the Rover V8's.
So once you get your cold flow sorted, I would go for the highest hot viscosity that you can get. This will offer better protection across the operating range of the engine. As I have previously stated, I run a 15W60 oil. I use to run a 20W70, but found that it did not get trough the motor as quickly as I would like on startup.
Therefore in a conventional oil (non-synthetic) I would recommend something in the range of 10W50 to 15W60. If you can't get a 10W50 where you are, I would sacrifice the cold viscosity before the hot. That is, I would go for a 15W50 before a 10W40 if I could not get a 10W50.

[p76rangie]

Neo, the last time that Elemental started this debate, I pulled out the following stats on Mobil 1. It might help explain things better. This is just an extract from the last debate thread.

"I assume that you are trying to prove your points about 0W/30 oil being thicker than a 10W/40 or that oil gets thicker when it gets hotter.

The thickness (viscosity) at temperature changes are clearly listed in most oil specs at 40C and 100C. Therefore, an oil would have to have a higher cST at 100C than 40C to actually be thicker. The other measure as to how well a oil stands up to higher temps, is the shear rating at 150C. So for a 0W/30 to be thicker than a 10W/40, it would have to have higher ratings at each of these measures.

You also assert that 20W/50 oil is crap as it fails on these important measures.

You have raised Mobil 1 in your reply, so I limit my reply to this product.

The following measures are for the following Mobil 1 oils listed in the following order 0W/20, 5W/20, 0W/30, 5W/30, 0W/40, 15W/50
40C cST: 45.5, 48.3, 63.1, 64.8, 78.3, 131.2
100C cST: 8.6, 8.8, 11.0, 11.3, 14, 18.1
150C Shear: 2.6, 2.62, 2.99, 3.09, 3.7, 4.5

Mobil 1 only make a 10W/40 in their high mileage oil. In this range they make a 10W/30 and a 10W/40
40C cST: 78.2, 98.16
100C cST: 11.79, 14.71
150C Shear: 3.66, 4.06

As I am sure that it is a surprise to everyone, each increase in viscosity actually shows the oil getting thicker at both 40C and 100C. The 150C shear also improves with each increase in viscosity. I would have never guessed.

Not one oil actually got thicker at 100C than what it was at 40C. Maybe they didn't know that Ele Mental thinks that oil is like a cake mix and is suppose to get thicker as we cook it.

Another surprise is that the 150C shear does not stay constant as we have been told based on SAE specs.

Their 10W/40 is also thicker at all measures than their 0W/30. What is the world coming to.

And finally 15W/50 offers the best shear protection at 150C."

[Elemental]

Originally Posted by Neo1975

Elemental
I did ask you about it, and do trust your input. That is why I have already bought the oil. P76 brought up some stuff that I haven't thought about as far as the way these things relate to temperature. I know that it is important but not exactly sure how the numbers relate to the temperatures. Just wondering what he had to say about it. Not second guessing you at all. I have the oil, just need to find the time to change it.
Thanks for the help.

Nah, I didnt think that. My tougne was firmly planted in my cheek when I typed that.

Now, for Steve Irwin..... The mobil one example is great.. But, somehow,shockingly, what I am trying to say isnt getting through to you. So, try this.

Take 5 brands of any oil you can find, and compare all 5 at the same Xw-XX rating. Tell me what you find.

And, 20-50 is made using the lowest quality of base oil(Level I), thus, in my opinion, shit.
.

Look, If I admit your dick is twice as large as mine, will you then listen to what I say and not cherry pick out of context?

[Neo1975]

To Elemental and P76:
Thanks for all the help. Before, I always thought it was okay as long as I bought the recommended xW-xx. Now I know there is more to consider.

[ArmyRover]

I use extra virgin olive oil with a bottle of lucas stabilizer.





On a side note while I don't always agree with Elemental he has helped solve a few mysteries for me on my rover over the net. So I would have to agree with Slangel that he is one knowledgable guy.

[Elemental]

Thanks Staci/Army. That means a bunch!

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by Elemental

Take 5 brands of any oil you can find, and compare all 5 at the same Xw-XX rating. Tell me what you find.

The questions have more been about what viscosity oil to use. I would tend to shop within a brand. For example deciding to buy Mobil 1. The question is what viscosity Mobil 1 should I buy.
With the amount of brands out there, it would take more time than I am prepared to commit to compare them all. Also, many brands like Castrol do not provide the required information on their website to make the comparison. From the tests I have seen on Castrol, I know why they don't publish them.
I have never suggested buying a cheap oil for your motor, but I don't agree with wasting money either. I would suggest that buying oil is similar to buying a car. That is, you pick out the brands that have a good reputation and then pick the model that best suits you. But it is not one size fits all as you suggest. It is a bit pointless buying a convertible if you live in the snow or a car without air-con if you live in Florida.

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by Elemental

And, 20-50 is made using the lowest quality of base oil(Level I), thus, in my opinion, shit.

That is very much a generalisation. But you are good at that.
I could make the same statement about the 15/40 that you recommend. That is, it has a very narrow viscosity range and therefore is most likely made with low grade base and certainly crap additives.
I am also not sure why anyone would recommend 0W40 for a Rover V8.

[Elemental]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

The questions have more been about what viscosity oil to use. I would tend to shop within a brand. For example deciding to buy Mobil 1. The question is what viscosity Mobil 1 should I buy.

Why brand loyality? Brand isnt going to matter at all, its whats in it. My point was a 5-30 of one brand can and does have different chacteristics as 5-30 of another brand. They are both 5-30, but behave completely different.

With the amount of brands out there, it would take more time than I am prepared to commit to compare them all. Also, many brands like Castrol do not provide the required information on their website to make the comparison.

We are in agreement! It takes way too much time, and some brands wotn tell you.....I wonder why they wont say. Hmmmm

From the tests I have seen on Castrol, I know why they don't publish them.

Roger that. Finally we are connecting!

I have never suggested buying a cheap oil for your motor, but I don't agree with wasting money either.

What is cheap? More money = Better oil? Not hardly. And, oil thats good for my Elelemnt isnt the best oil for a Rover V8. Knowing what to look for, and what it means will get you the right oil.... Really any fluid really.

I would suggest that buying oil is similar to buying a car. That is, you pick out the brands that have a good reputation and then pick the model that best suits you.

Brand Means nothing! Its what is in the bottle that matters, not whats printed on the outside.

But it is not one size fits all as you suggest. It is a bit pointless buying a convertible if you live in the snow or a car without air-con if you live in Florida.

For the VAST majority of people with a Land Rover and a Flat Tappet V8, Rotella 15-40 is the cheapest,most widely avalible choice that meets the demand.