Engine Flush

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by Elemental

We are so close I can taste it.

No we aren't and I am sick of going around in circles.

[Elemental]

Isnt it like 3 in the morning by you. Didnt you go to bed like hours ago?

This may clear up everything I tried to teach you.

RickRoll.org - You Got Rick Rolled

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by Elemental

Isnt it like 3 in the morning by you. Didnt you go to bed like hours ago?

Yes and yes. Got headache and waiting for pills to kick in.

[Elemental]

I cant imagine fighting about oil is helping your headache.

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by Elemental

I cant imagine fighting about oil is helping your headache.

Maybe that is why I'm not

[Elemental]

That headache is Gods way of telling you I am right!

Even the Almighty knows whats up!

[KDamericano]

Wow. At this point I have a headache. Just because I've forgotten some of the original point, I was just going to look for some clarity.

Elemental -- Here's what I'm understanding. You're saying that in regards to the Rover V8, one should look for an oil with a high sheer rating (which would warrant the ACEA A3/B3 rating?) because of the flat tappet cam. This is all in regards to the Rover V8. In a newer engine with a roller cam, the sheer factor is not as much of an issue because the cam design. Does that sound right?


PS - doesn't something like 80% of engine wear occur at startup?

[Elemental]

Originally Posted by KDamericano

Elemental -- Here's what I'm understanding. You're saying that in regards to the Rover V8, one should look for an oil with a high sheer rating (which would warrant the ACEA A3/B3 rating?) because of the flat tappet cam. This is all in regards to the Rover V8. In a newer engine with a roller cam, the sheer factor is not as much of an issue because the cam design. Does that sound right?

That is spot on to my point.

[KDamericano]

SCORE!

btw I had an oil analysis done last year

Discovery II Oil Analysis - DiscoWeb Message Boards

I think I'm going to keep that up on an annual basis. Though this was done with Castrol - I currently run Rotella 15-40 in the summer months and Rotella synthetic 5-40 in the winter

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by Elemental

That headache is Gods way of telling you I am right!

Even the Almighty knows whats up!

Believe it or not, I was not dreaming of you when I got it.

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by Elemental

That is spot on to my point.

Well we finally agree on something. That is you should use as high a viscosity oil as you can while maintaining the minimum xW for your climate. Minimum of 50 and up to 70. That is, the higher the viscosity the higher the shear rating. (for proof if you require it, refer back to the stats I posted for Mobil 1, but applies the same to other oils)

[KDamericano]

I did notice that Valvoline Sythetic 20w50 does meet the ACEA A3/B3/C3 rating, according to their website. The viscosity rating was only like 156 or something.

[bartell]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

I love what you write. Are you saying that oils have got worse over the years. That the new hi tec engines have to put up with oils that do not protect as well as oils produced 10 or 20 years ago. The oils quoted in the manual would be even better now.

Levebvre is right in his concerns. Some of us should get out more often.

Each engine is different and has different needs. In our case, the old LR engine is very different from the present pack and what is good for the pack is not necessarily good for us.

1. The engines use a low pressure high volume oil system. The only secret to this engine's longevity is frequent oil changes, 3000 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first. Use a decent mineral oil, Valvoline or the noted Castrol. Synthetics are designed for long life and high pressure. So they are a waste of money for us.

2. The lifters are made for 20W50 and have been since the Buick 215 beginnings. You can play around with viscosities all you want and not get hurt but it won't change that simple fact.

3. The lifters are flat tappets. I believe that this engine was one of the very last still made with them (outside of farm equipment).

In 2004, the EPA indicated that it would force automobile manufactuers to guarrantee a minimum of a 10 year life for catalytic converters (aka cats) by 2009 and offered "emission credits" for earlier compliance.

All motor oils have traditionally (75 years) contained an inexpensive additive called zinc dialkyldithiophophate. It coats metal with a glass like film that lasts from 2500-3500 miles, thereby greatly reducing the damage caused by metal to metal contact. However, over time (average of 8 years) it also coats cats to a point where their effectiveness is diminished.

To help themselves with this, since 2005 the US auto manufacturers heavily pressured US motor oil companies to remove this additive. They had tested the effect on the presently made engines (which use rollers now, a differnt rocker/lifter system) and saw no damage.

The oil companies complied, and have been removing the additive without altering the designation of the oils. To reflect their caution, for the most part they stopped publishing their oil's constituent additives. GM even stopped selling their EOS (engine oil supplement (a heavy concentration of this additive) in the US.

Sadly, it has been irrefutably established that the lack of this additive causes bad cam and lifter damage to flat tappet engines during their bedding in period (1000 miles). It is not yet established what (if any) the damage will be on bedded in motors of a long duration but "tapping noises" on start up have become a popular topic on flat tappet engine (LR, Triumph, MG) discussion groups.

Some have moved to diesel motor oils like 15W40. As few diesels have cats, this additive levels are still allowed to be high (the old level was 1800 ppm) However, cats are coming for diesels and the diesel oil contain too many detergents for a non-diesel engine.

Racing oils still contain high levels, but are to find and hard to pay for find. Problem is the additive is constantly being reduced so what you bought 18 months ago is not be in the same oil you bought today, though the bottle and label indications are the same.

The resultant uproar has recently forced GM to bring back its EOS (under a new Delco part) OR the additive is now available in almost pure form in some places. Cam makers will not sell a cam to a flat tappet owner without bottles of the brew.

So in answer to Lebevre's question, the answer is yes. When it comes to the old Rover V8's needs, the oils available have become worse...and will continue to do so through 2009 and beyond. It is easy to avoid an issue here if you are aware. If not....

James

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by bartell

2. The lifters are made for 20W50 and have been since the Buick 215 beginnings. You can play around with viscosities all you want and not get hurt but it won't change that simple fact.

Yes and no. If you live in a very cold climate (below 0C) if the oil doesn't circulate quick enough on start up, you are going to cause wear. So like anything, it is a compromise and you will need a lower xW rating for cold climates, but you should try and maximise the hot viscosity.

Originally Posted by bartell

All motor oils have traditionally (75 years) contained an inexpensive additive called zinc dialkyldithiophophate. It coats metal with a glass like film that lasts from 2500-3500 miles, thereby greatly reducing the damage caused by metal to metal contact. However, over time (average of 8 years) it also coats cats to a point where their effectiveness is diminished.

Again not strictly correct. All oils still have it, around 1200ppm. It was never designed to protect surfaces for 2500 to 3000 miles. What it was designed to do was to protect it if for some reason there is no oil on the contact surfaces. The amount of zinc only determines how long it will protect without oil, not the level of protection it gives. The claims that the reduced levels have caused cam failures has not been scientifically proven and is mainly emotional statements from people who do not like change.

Originally Posted by bartell

since 2005 the US auto manufacturers heavily pressured US motor oil companies to remove this additive. The oil companies complied, and have been removing the additive without altering the designation of the oils.

It hasn't been removed, just reduced.

Originally Posted by bartell

Some have moved to diesel motor oils like 15W40. As few diesels have cats, this additive levels are still allowed to be high (the old level was 1800 ppm) However, cats are coming for diesels and the diesel oil contain too many detergents for a non-diesel engine.

Incorrect again. Since January 2007, diesel oils have also had to comply with reduced zinc levels in the USA.

I am not sure why the same old points keep on getting raised.

[Ioan]

You should also check the manifold/downpipe gasket. I have the same symptoms and the gasket has a crack in it. Once the car warms up, the heat from the exhaust warms it up (expanding the materials around) and the noise goes away. Just a thought.

All the best