Engine Flush

[Jupiter Rover]

i sounded like a dick. you know what i mean......

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by Jupiter Rover

what do you think about the ACEA ratings from elemental? and i know it was written by the SAE, i knew it was a article not written by you. no offense.

It would appear that the ACEA ratings are the more difficult to obtain and therefore require better oils. This is a quote from the Penrite article that Elemental posted the link to around page 3 of this thread.

"ACEA stands for Association des Contructuers Europeens de l’Automobile. This classification system is the European equivalent of the API classification system, but is stricter and has more severe requirements. Hence an oil that meets both API and ACEA specifications uses a better additive package than one that is designed to meet only API specifications. Unlike the API, ACEA has three main groups – “A/B” for gasoline and light duty (passenger car, 4WD etc) diesel engines, “C” for light duty catalyst compatible oils and “E” for heavy duty diesel engines. "

[Jupiter Rover]

okay that helps alot. i have that article up on a link, im going to take a look at it in a few min.. still looking around for the oil i want. i live 30 min away from boca disco.

[p76rangie]

This was moved from another thread as I am not going to debate the thing across multiple threads with the same person.

Originally Posted by bartell

P76,

You are going be getting more and more and more of these.

Why not read SAE Tech Bulletin #770087 wherein you will find an article by Loren & Rodgers on "Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDDP Concentration and Type’. It will explain what is happening. This stuff won't peek until the end of 2009.

James

First off the above report 770087 was conducted back in 1977 and has little relevance to today's oils.
Secondly, no one is debating that some ZDP is required (around 800ppm).
Finally the above report highlighted the need to actually test the oils on real motors, which they have done. Now (but not back in 1977) the oils have to be ran in a flat cam motor to prove they have no ill efect before getting their SAE rating.

[bartell]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

First off the above report 770087 was conducted back in 1977 and has little relevance to today's oils.

I heaven's name why?!!!!!! Do you think flat tappets have changed since 1977. Can you explain how? The manufacturers of those tappets will tell you they haven't changed at all.

Originally Posted by p76rangie

Secondly, no one is debating that some ZDP is required (around 800ppm).

My God! Where did you get THAT? You are confusing the needs of flat tappet engines with the needs of all other engines. As I said originally, you have to get out more often.

James (shaking his head)

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by bartell

I heaven's name why?!!!!!! Do you think flat tappets have changed since 1977. Can you explain how? The manufacturers of those tappets will tell you they haven't changed at all.



My God! Where did you get THAT? You are confusing the needs of flat tappet engines with the needs of all other engines. As I said originally, you have to get out more often.

James (shaking his head)

What planet are you on?
I said the oils in 1977 are not the same as SM (Current) oil. Where did I say that the cams have changed.

SAE specifications (as previously posted), mobil oil specifications (as previously posted) state that the ZDDP levels are 800ppm or higher.
You have to stop this chicken little crap. You never provide anything to back up what you are saying. Show me a manufacturers spec for a mainstream engine oil that states it is below 800ppm. Post the contents of 770087 where it supports you view in any way that modern oils have any impact on flat tappet cams. This report related to 1977, where by your accounts the oil was kind to cams.

The article from SAE has already stated that anything above 1400ppm accelerates cam wear and at 2000ppm it actually starts eating into the cam. But you have never stated what level of ZDDP that you think should be in the oil. If anything above 1400 accelerates wear and that 800ppm was proved back in the 1960's to protect cams, why are you saying that Mobil 15w50 at 1200ppm is no good for cams, or any of the other mobil oils at 800ppm will somehow wear cams.

How do you explain these oils that supposedly wreck cams getting SAE classifications when such classifications require them to prove that the oil is safe for flat tappet cams.

That's right, all you can ever come back with is "The sky is falling!, the sky is falling!". Post some facts or back in your box

[p76rangie]

Moved from another thread posted today:

Originally Posted by bartell

There is an easy way to check on the value of the additive.
The reduction of zddp was not designed to make your engine happier, it was done to force compliance with the laws on catalytic converter life span. In non-flat tappet engines, the reduction is harmless. However, with our engines, some caution is necessary.

P76 is jumping up and down so protesting everything is fine with 45% of tradition levels, but then he recommends an oil with one of the highest concentrations (at least for the moment) of zddp remaining. Is that luck or wisdom?

we here have yet to see any damage caused to flat tappet engines using low levels of this additive after the first successful 1000-1500 miles on new cam and tappets.

In a nutshell, if you believe there is no possibility of damage (as P76 suggests) then use whatever you want.

On the other hand, if you wish to be prudent after informing yourself properly, choose oils with 1200 ppm+ or use any oil and a high concentrate zddp supplement (about 2-3 dollars an oil change). If P76 turns out to be right, you will have lost that money but certainly caused no harm. If he turns out to be wrong, you could prevent sad damage at a minor cost and no inconvenience. Your choice.

One thing for sure, it stops noise from tappets! If the noise doesn't stop, it isn't the tappets.

So I have finally worked it out, you are from the company that produces the ZDDP additives.
Stop stating that I have said things that I have not. All I have said is that current levels of ZDDP are adequate for flat tappet type cams. The SAE, that set the standards also state that it is safe. They have also stated that if they do as you suggest, and add the ZDDP additive to an oil like Mobil 15w40, you will increase the wear of the cam and could actually eat into the metal and destroy it.

Why are you trying to get people to destroy their motors just so you can sell some more ZDDP additives. The only thing they can refer to in support of using their additive is a report done 31 years ago. We don't need salesmen disguising themselves as interested forum members.

[R_Lefebvre]

Ugh, my head's going to explode.

So, I'm not supposed to use a diesel engine oil because the detergent package is too strong, even though my diesel oil has an API SM rating. But then I am supposed to use an ACEA A3/B3 rated oil, however the only A3/B3 rated oil I can find in North America is a diesel engine oil.

Fantastic.

I just picked up two gallons of the Petro Canada Duron E 15W40 but now I don't know if I'll use it.

I'm going to ask a direct question again, because it seems to have been sidestepped again:

Rangie, you state at one point in this thread that we should all obey what is in the owner's manual instead of these other guys that you disagree with. But then you tell us to use an oil with a viscosity outside of the range of the manual, and you seem unconcerned with ACEA ratings. Surely you know that too thick of an oil will reduce the oils ability to flow because you do seem concerned with that at lower temps, but you don't seem concerned with using it at higher temps.

I assume that it gets above 30C down in Florida, so 10W40 would be getting a bit marginal for the hot whether. Look at your owners manual, it will give you the correct ratings for your driving temperatures.

The manuals for the cars were mostly written before the modern oils were readily available.

Really? My manual is from 2004.

From the manual, and I quote:

Engine Oil
Use Castrol 10W/40 engine oil meeting specification ACEA A2. If Castrol 10W40 is no t available, Castrol 10W30 can be used.

Engine Oil Temperature Ranges
10W/30 will protect from -10°C to +30°C
10W/40 will protect from -10°C to +50°C

That's it from the manual. Nothing less nothing more.

From my Duron E tech data:

DURON-E exceeds the latest gasoline engine oil specification and is suitable for use in passenger cars and light duty truck applications where API SM or earlier specifications are required. Suitable for use in wet clutch applications where JASO MA is recommended.

From here: http://lubricants.petro-canada.ca/re...76&language=en

HTHS rating is 4.3! Viscity index on the non-synth is 139 and the synthetic is 160.

One last point, it was mentioned that modern engines aren't using flat tappets anymore. Most modern economy DOHC 4 cylinder engines are using flat mechanical buckets under the valves.

[Elemental]

I have personally disassembled Rover engines with over 100,000 miles fed a steady diet of Rotella t. Bearings,CAM and rings all within Spec.

[KDamericano]

I think I'm going to side with elemental on this in saying that ZDP does not necessarily prevent engine wear, it simply manages wear that the proper oil can prevent. In this regard, the things you should look for in an oil are things like viscosity index and shear ratings. It looks like both of those are addressed in the ACEA ratings, so in that regard, I'd go with the owners manual which says to use an ACEA approved oil (though my rave says ACEA A1). In looking on the web there seems to be plenty of oils that fit the bill.

In addition, Shell does have a 1-800 number you can call to talk to an oil engineer for free. I called them last year to ask about the ZDDP debacle. The guy I spoke with said that while the ZDDP has been reduced, the wear has been addressed with other additives that are less harmful to cats, and the new oils (SM rating) still have to meet strict standards to prove they are not harmful in flat tappet engines. He said despite the reduction in ZDDP, the new oils still protect better than the older SL and SJ.

[Jupiter Rover]

so Rotella t is looking pretty damn good then.. i love shell.

[p76rangie]

I am continually misquoted, so I will attempt to put my views in a clear and concise manner:

1) ZDDP
There is little or no evidence that the reductions in ZDDP have caused any problems with cam wear, outside the initial running in. It has been shown that too much ZDDP (above 1400ppm) can be damaging to your cam. Previous studies have shown that some ZDDP is required for Rover type cams. The level required for such protection is around 800ppm. People attempting to sell ZDDP additives would use what ever evidence is available to sell their product. Yet the only evidence they can come up with is a test done 31 years ago. They cannot produce anything that suggests that the recent reductions in levels has any impact.

2)ACEA ratings
I have never posted anything to say that you should only purchase oils with a ACEA rating. I was asked for a view on such ratings and I posted some information from the internet. It indicated that you needed a better quaility oil to get an ACEA rating than a SAE oil. However, it is expensive and time consuming for oil companies to do the relevant testing against each oil specification. There are hundreds of specifications around the world, even down to individual vehicle manufacturers having their own specs. So an oil company will only do the testing if they believe it has a financial advantage in it for them. So not having a ACEA rating MAY mean that it does not meet ACEA specs, but it may simply mean that it was never tested and certified against those specs. Such a rating is not overly relevant in selling oil in the United States.

3) Shear Factor.
Oil performs basically two primary functions. Firstly to keep metal parts from touching each other and secondly to allow them to move with the minimum amount of friction. Their ability to keep the components apart relates to two factors, the shear factor of the oil and the pressure that the oil is under at the time. The higher the Viscosity of the oil (within any given brand of oil) the higher the shear factor of the oil. From a shearing point of view, you are best to go with the highest hot viscosity you can. A 15W50 oil will have a higher shear factor than a 15w40 oil.

4) Oil Viscosities.
I have indicated that the vehicle manufacturers specifications is a good starting point when chossing an oil. However, such specifications are usually based around commonly available oils at the time the vehicle was manufactured. These specifications, as a general rule, will tell you to use a lower xW rating in colder climates and a higher xx rating in hotter climates. The cold viscosity (xW) deals with the oils ability to flow when cold. This is important to get the oil through the engine on startup and to prevent engine wear. Except for particularly cold climates, a 15W oil will meet most climate requirements. The hot oil viscosity of say 50 does not mean that the oil will somehow be thicker at warmer running temperatures. It simply means that it is equivalent to a 50 weight oil heated to that temperature. It will still be considerably thinner than the cold viscosity of the oil. As stated earlier, the higher the viscosity of the oil, the better the shear protection. I have always stated that you should go for as higher viscosity as you can while maintaining the cold temp requirements. So if Mobil makes a 15W50, I would recommend that over a Shell 15W40. I actually run a 15W60.

5) Diesel oil
Traditionally Diesel oil has had higher detergents than normal oil. This is becoming less so. There is some evidence that the higher detergent levels have an adverse affect of the protection levels offered by ZDDP. But beside this, diesel oils have additives suited to a diesel engine. You can get LPG oil, that has additives suited to LPG fueled engines, and umpteen other specialised oils. All I am suggesting with diesel oils is why purchase an oil with additives built around a diesel engine rather than one with additives built around a gasoline engine. People have previously pushed diesel engine oils because of higher ZDDP levels and higher detergent levels. However, such levels are now very close to normal engine oils.

6) Viscosity Index.
The Viscosity index simply rates to how the oil thins when heated. The higher the index the higher you will find the difference between the cold viscosity and the hot viscosity. That is a 15W50 will have a higher Viscosity index than a 15W40

7) Recommended Oil
Based on the oils I have looked at that are available in the states, it would appear that Mobil 1 15W50 is a reasonable oil. It is from a reputable company and has a reasonable quality of oil used. For those that are still a bit nervous about ZDDP levels, it has a high concentration that does not get into the dangerous levels. Such levels are above the requirements for Rover type cams. It has a winter rating that would suit most parts of the United States. While maintaining this good winter rating it has a relatively high hot temperature rating (50) which will offer a good shear protection for your engine.

[Jupiter Rover]

yay, more reading!!^^^^^^^

pennzoil 15w50 meets the ACEA ratings, unlike the Mobil 15w50.. just saying..

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by R_Lefebvre

Rangie, you state at one point in this thread that we should all obey what is in the owner's manual instead of these other guys that you disagree with. But then you tell us to use an oil with a viscosity outside of the range of the manual.

I have indicated that you should use the owners guide as a base. If you can improve on the range, then do so. So if your manual states that you should use a 10W40 oil, then go for it. An improvement I would consider to be decreasing the cold rating while maintaing the manufacturers spec for the hot rating or increasing the hot rating while maintaining the manufacturers spec for the cold rating. But if your manual recommends a 10W40, why would you consider a 15W40, which is a step backwards on the manufacturers specs.

Originally Posted by R_Lefebvre

and you seem unconcerned with ACEA ratings.

ACEA ratings are not required on oils sold in the states. Therefore a lot of oils may not have a rating printed on them. So referring to such ratings would not help out you guys.

Originally Posted by R_Lefebvre

Surely you know that too thick of an oil will reduce the oils ability to flow because you do seem concerned with that at lower temps, but you don't seem concerned with using it at higher temps..

The reason I am not concerned about having a higher hot viscosity is that the higher the better. It will never have a negative impact. An oil will never be thicker than when it is cold. So if the cold viscosity is safe for the motor, the hot viscosity will certainly be safe. The thicker the oil the better the shear protection. I have twin oil coolers on my engine to keep the oil as cool and as thick as possible when the engine is running.

Originally Posted by R_Lefebvre

Really? My manual is from 2004.
From the manual, and I quote:
That's it from the manual. Nothing less nothing more.

Great. Use the oil they recommend, you will be providing a good minimum level of protection. The reason I recommend using the manufacturers specs is that one oil does not fit all engines. For example a moderm turbo charged engine requires a completely different oil to our old engines. Even though the Rover engines did not change much over the years, the recommended oils in the manuals for various temperatures appear to have changed. Mine states that 40 is good up to around 35C and then use 50.

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by Jupiter Rover

pennzoil 15w50 meets the ACEA ratings, unlike the Mobil 15w50.. just saying..

Again, I do not know if it is that their oil doesn't meet the requirement or they just don't bother going through the certification. The Mobil 15W50 sold here in Oz does have a ACEA certification. Go figure.