Lifter Noise

[mrach21061]

2002 Disco 2 83K mi.
I think I have lifter noise.
Engine sounds fine when cold but when it warms up it taps at low rpm (at idle). Seems like it only taps when oil is warm and rpms are low both of which will naturally decrease the oil pressure. Then when reving from idle the tap gets a little louder and then at higer rpm the tap goes away. I recently rebuilt the heads. First time I started it after rebuilding the heads the engine was tapping like this but I put some lucas crap in there and a little sea foam in the oil. Then after letting the truck run for 10 mins the tapping went away. After about 400 miles of driving the tapping is back but not as loud. Im debating on what to do first?

--Change oil and filter (bought penzoil oil and cheap fram filter)
--Pull off valve covers and check for bad lifters or loose rocker arms(shouldnt be loose)

[p76rangie]

If you take off the tappet cover and start the motor you can work out if it is a tappet. Just place your finger on each tappet while the motor is running, if one is lose you will feel a sharpness in the movement. It is little difficult to explain, but it will feel like it is being hit rather than pushed.

While you are at it, check that the rods appear to be turning as the motor is running.

[mrach21061]

If I have pressure from my finger on the rocker the bad lifter should stop tapping right?
Also,
What about the tapping when hot? Lifters usually tap when cold right? Seems like low oil pressure. I think this would be from a cheap filter and oil.

[ArmyRover]

while the oil is probably acceptable many have had issues with the fram oil filter I would suggest changing it out for a quality filter such as the wix brand(sold at napa as the gold line filter), a mobile 1 filter or a ac delco filter. Then go from there.

[mrach21061]

Ok, Cool. I ll try the filter from NAPA. How about the oil. I know no one has a good answer. But I have read from Elemental that 15-40 Rotella is good? Anyone have any thoughts on what brand/type of oil works good with this engine? The manual says most types of weights are ok for alot of temp ranges. Seems like 10-40 is most popular..

[p76rangie]

The original tapping when you first rebuilt the motor was most likely due to not priming the motor first and the oil taking a little while to get into the lifters properly.

In regard to oil, Mobil 1 15w50 is a reasonable choice.

[Elemental]

First things first. Get that Fram off of there. That simple act very well could cure your noise!

[buick215]

If the motor is quiet when cold but taps when hot I would suspect the rocker arms and shafts - not the lifters.

[bartell]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

If you take off the tappet cover and start the motor you can work out if it is a tappet. .

P76,

You are going be getting more and more and more of these.

Why not read SAE Tech Bulletin #770087 wherein you will find an article by Loren & Rodgers on "Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDDP Concentration and Type’. It will explain what is happening. This stuff won't peek until the end of 2009.

James

[KDamericano]

Originally Posted by bartell

P76,

You are going be getting more and more and more of these.

Why not read SAE Tech Bulletin #770087 wherein you will find an article by Loren & Rodgers on "Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDDP Concentration and Type’. It will explain what is happening. This stuff won't peek until the end of 2009.

James

I read the blurb on the SAE website about that paper. Not that I disagree with what they are saying, but it was published in 1977, so it might not apply to what's happening now as a lot about oil has changed since then.


In regards to the noise, start with a better filter and an oil change. Then go from there. Sounds like maybe rocker arms, but that's just an educated guess.

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by bartell

P76,

You are going be getting more and more and more of these.

Why not read SAE Tech Bulletin #770087 wherein you will find an article by Loren & Rodgers on "Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDDP Concentration and Type’. It will explain what is happening. This stuff won't peek until the end of 2009.

James

I am not sure what the above means.
But if you are attempting to move the discussion from the engine flush thread to this one, I am not interested.

[ArmyRover]

wow that's a new one a migrating thread.....

[bartell]

Originally Posted by mrach21061

2002 Disco 2 83K mi.
I think I have lifter noise.
Engine sounds fine when cold but when it warms up it taps at low rpm (at idle).

Try this. See if you can find a GM supplier to sell you a bottle of EOS (engine Oil supplement). At your next oil change add the bottle and use with 15W50 Mobile 1. Alternatively, buy a product called ZDDplus and add 2 ozs and use with any oil.

You will be pleased with the result...and you can report here.

James

[bartell]

Originally Posted by KDamericano

I read the blurb on the SAE website about that paper. Not that I disagree with what they are saying, but it was published in 1977, so it might not apply to what's happening now as a lot about oil has changed since then.

You hear a lot of that..about oil changing. I agree. However, change is not necessarily a sure signal of something better, with oils or anything. Oil changes reflect two things primarily; 1. increased emission intolerance and 2. today's engines (not yesterday's).

This wonderful little V8 was originally proto-typed in the late 1950s and first mass-produced in the early 60s. It uses a cam/tappet/rocker technology that became obsolete long ago. Its needs are different from the overwhelming majority.

There is an easy way to check on the value of the additive. Simply examine the oils used by those whose engines are not legally required to conform to EPA exigencies...like farmers and racers. Examine the levels of this additive that are blended for them in THEIR motor oil. You will invariably find high concentrations..especially with the savvy latter bunch. That begs the question, if the most advanced versions of engines use more not less, what are you doing?

The reduction of zddp was not designed to make your engine happier, it was done to force compliance with the laws on catalytic converter life span. In non-flat tappet engines, the reduction is harmless. However, with our engines, some caution is necessary. P76 is jumping up and down so protesting everything is fine with 45% of tradition levels, but then he recommends an oil with one of the highest concentrations (at least for the moment) of zddp remaining. Is that luck or wisdom?

Warning: If You Have An Older Vehicle, Choose Your Oil Carefully
http://www.sae.org/events/pfs/presen...2005spikes.pdf
“BACKWARD COMPATIBILITY� IN NEW ENGINE OILS ? - MiniMania.com
http://www.src.wisc.edu/meetings/um2...n_Abstract.pdf

Candidly, we here have yet to see any damage caused to flat tappet engines using low levels of this additive after the first successful 1000-1500 miles on new cam and tappets. However, as noted, these levels only started being reduced a couple of years ago that will continue until 2009. There is no data yet on longer term effects.

In a nutshell, if you beleive there is no possibility of damage (as P76 suggests) then use whatever you want.

On the other hand, if you wish to be prudent after informing yourself properly, choose oils with 1200 ppm+ or use any oil and a high concentrate zddp supplement (about 2-3 dollars an oil change). If P76 turns out to be right, you will have lost that money but certainly caused no harm. If he turns out to be wrong, you could prevent sad damage at a minor cost and no inconvenience. Your choice.

One thing for sure, it stops noise from tappets! If the noise doesn't stop, it isn't the tappets.

James

[bartell]

Originally Posted by KDamericano

I read the blurb on the SAE website about that paper. Not that I disagree with what they are saying, but it was published in 1977, so it might not apply to what's happening now as a lot about oil has changed since then.

You hear a lot of that..about oil changing. I agree. However, change is not necessarily a sure signal of something better, with oils or anything. Oil changes reflect two things primarily; 1. increased emission intolerance and 2. today's engines (not yesterday's).

This wonderful little V8 was originally proto-typed in the late 1950s and first mass-produced in the early 60s. It uses a cam/tappet/rocker technology that became obsolete long ago. Its needs are different from the overwhelming majority.

There is an easy way to check on the value of the additive. Simply examine the oils used by those whose engines are not legally required to conform to EPA exigencies...like farmers and racers. Examine the levels of this additive that are blended for them in THEIR motor oil. You will invariably find high concentrations..especially with the savvy latter bunch. That begs the question, if the most advanced versions of engines use more not less, what are you doing?

The reduction of zddp was not designed to make your engine happier, it was done to force compliance with the laws on catalytic converter life span. In non-flat tappet engines, the reduction is harmless. However, with our engines, some caution is necessary. P76 is jumping up and down so protesting everything is fine with 45% of tradition levels, but then he recommends an oil with one of the highest concentrations (at least for the moment) of zddp remaining. Is that luck or wisdom?

Warning: If You Have An Older Vehicle, Choose Your Oil Carefully

http://www.sae.org/events/pfs/presen...2005spikes.pdf

“BACKWARD COMPATIBILITY” IN NEW ENGINE OILS ? - MiniMania.com

http://www.src.wisc.edu/meetings/um2...n_Abstract.pdf

Candidly, we here have yet to see any damage caused to flat tappet engines using low levels of this additive after the first successful 1000-1500 miles on new cam and tappets. However, as noted, these levels only started being reduced a couple of years ago that will continue until 2009. There is no data yet on longer term effects.

In a nutshell, if you believe there is no possibility of damage (as P76 suggests) then use whatever you want.

On the other hand, if you wish to be prudent after informing yourself properly, choose oils with 1200 ppm+ or use any oil and a high concentrate zddp supplement (about 2-3 dollars an oil change). If P76 turns out to be right, you will have lost that money but certainly caused no harm. If he turns out to be wrong, you could prevent sad damage at a minor cost and no inconvenience. Your choice.

One thing for sure, it stops noise from tappets! If the noise doesn't stop, it isn't the tappets.

James