Misfire HELP! - Land Rovers Only

mrach21061 · 11-13-2007, 05:15 PM

I posted a while back in a different thread but im creating a new fresh thread to clear things up.
I need to know whats wrong with my engine. Heres the story:
DRY COMPRESSION:
1-140 psi 2-167 psi
3-147 psi 4-140 psi
5-167 psi 6-167 psi
7-167 psi 8-146 psi

WET COMPRESSION:
1-150 psi 2-175 psi
3-160 psi 4-160 psi
5-175 psi 6-175 psi
7-180 psi 8-163 psi

VACUUM:
at ilde: 14 in Hg fluctuates (jumps) by only 0.5 in Hg
at 2000 rpm: 20 in Hg fluctuates (jumps) by only 0.5 in Hg

Problem started after some valves were replaced from my timing chain snapping. I didnt do the work but I bought 3 sets of valves for the shop and they lapped them in themselves rather than taking it to a head shop (I was being cheap). Computer gives a code for cylinder 1 misfire and the engine runs rough on idle and a little smoother at higher rpms.
The shop had the dealer computer hooked up to it and I saw some numbers that looked like maybe knock sensor readings. The only one that showed high numbers (maybe 4 or 5?) was cyl 1. The others were maybe 1 or 2?
All spark plugs have some black soot on the metal part but cyl 1 has black soot on the ceramic part also.
Also I noticed a little bit of oil in the intake manifold where the PCV valve goes into the manifold? When I take the pcv hose off the intake I get a little smoke comming out of the hose while running. I think this is normal.
Please let me know what you think, any insight would be helpfull.

Rovin4life · 11-13-2007, 08:29 PM

whats the freeze frame data from the misfire code.

possible issue with the reluctor ring but need the info first.

and the engine is ok.

mrach21061 · 11-14-2007, 06:13 AM

Im not sure I know what freeze frame data is? Is it the actual code number or is it something I need to get from the dealer computer? The code is P0301 if im not mistaken. I had a misfire code on cyl3 and general misfire code P1300 at one point but I think this was from doing compression tests.

Is there any way I can visually inspect the reluctor ring?

This is my Brain Fart:
I looked in the Workshop manual about the CKP sensor. It says if the output wires are reversed there is a 3 degree advance in ignition timing. This would explain my carbon buildup on all spark plugs and rough running and maybe since cyl1 has the worst compression thats the one that is misfireing? What do you think?

mrach21061 · 11-15-2007, 04:06 PM

Rovin,
Heres the Codes Most of them are from doing compression tests:

P0300
P0301
P0308
P0304
P0303
P0302
P0301
P1668 Pending

Here's the Freeze Data for the P0301:
RPM 636
Load Value 3.5%
Temp 197 F
Short Term Fuel Trim1 0.0%
Long Term Fuel Trim1 0.7%
Short Term Fuel Trim2 9.3%
Long Term Fuel Trim2 1.5%
Short Term Fuel Trim3 -100.6%
Long Term Fuel Trim3 ? didnt get it
Long Term Fuel Trim4 -100.6%
Short Term Fuel Trim4 -100.6%
Vehicle Speed 0MPH
Fuel System 1 Open2
Fuel System 2 CLSD

I cleared the codes out and drove it down the street then I got another P0301, Here's the Freeze data for this one:
RPM 1131
Load Value 7.4%
Temp 217 F
Short Term Fuel Trim1 0.7%
Long Term Fuel Trim1 0.7%
Short Term Fuel Trim2 3.1%
Long Term Fuel Trim2 1.5%
Short Term Fuel Trim3 -100.6%
Long Term Fuel Trim3 -100.6%
Long Term Fuel Trim4 -100.6%
Short Term Fuel Trim4 -100.6%
Vehicle Speed 24MPH
Fuel System 1 CLSD
Fuel System 2 CLSD

Does this look like anything is wrong?

stolenheron · 11-15-2007, 06:22 PM

i donno, my buddy just had the same thing happen on his BMW 323i in cylinder 1 (PO301), if you find anything out i'm interested too.

Disco Mike · 11-16-2007, 05:55 AM

Tell your buddy he has a misfire on number one and to check his plug nd wire.
Mike

mrach21061 · 11-16-2007, 05:58 AM

Stolenheron,
Usually the first thing is to change your spark plugs and wires. I have 7 mo old Magnacor wires and new plugs. Unless the wires were acidentally cut by the shop when they took the heads off. I think I have a different problem, not that simple.

Rovin4life · 11-18-2007, 02:13 PM

check everything first, that includes pulling on the wire and checking the fuel injector wiring.

mrach21061 · 11-19-2007, 04:38 AM

I have checked the signal going to cyl1 fuel injector, its good. I can try to jiggle the wires but is there anything else I should check? Maybe put a new spark plug wire on Cyl1? What else should I check before I pull the head off?

I did notice a lot of oil in the intake after the timing chain snapped. Would this dammage any sensors in the intake?

Elemental · 11-19-2007, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrach21061

I posted a while back in a different thread but im creating a new fresh thread to clear things up.
I need to know whats wrong with my engine. Heres the story:
DRY COMPRESSION:
1-140 psi 2-167 psi
3-147 psi 4-140 psi
5-167 psi 6-167 psi
7-167 psi 8-146 psi

WET COMPRESSION:
1-150 psi 2-175 psi
3-160 psi 4-160 psi
5-175 psi 6-175 psi
7-180 psi 8-163 psi

VACUUM:
at ilde: 14 in Hg fluctuates (jumps) by only 0.5 in Hg
at 2000 rpm: 20 in Hg fluctuates (jumps) by only 0.5 in Hg

Problem started after some valves were replaced from my timing chain snapping. I didnt do the work but I bought 3 sets of valves for the shop and they lapped them in themselves rather than taking it to a head shop (I was being cheap). Computer gives a code for cylinder 1 misfire and the engine runs rough on idle and a little smoother at higher rpms.
The shop had the dealer computer hooked up to it and I saw some numbers that looked like maybe knock sensor readings. The only one that showed high numbers (maybe 4 or 5?) was cyl 1. The others were maybe 1 or 2?
All spark plugs have some black soot on the metal part but cyl 1 has black soot on the ceramic part also.
Also I noticed a little bit of oil in the intake manifold where the PCV valve goes into the manifold? When I take the pcv hose off the intake I get a little smoke comming out of the hose while running. I think this is normal.
Please let me know what you think, any insight would be helpfull.

The compression readings and vaccum are pointing to a internal engine problem.... Your wet readings have quite a spread. I'm leaning towards worn rings, but I would take down a engine based on what some guy on the internet tells you.

On a good engine, your vacuum will be rock solid. Use this link to assist you in your diag. This is not a computer/sensor failure. The engine has somethign goign on.

http://www.users.bigpond.com/ergoff/vac1.htm

mrach21061 · 11-19-2007, 06:39 AM

My compression meter looks like "Normal Engine" but I run at 14 in Hg at idle so it looks more like "POOR RINGS". Does anyone know what normal readings are for this engine?

POOR RINGS: motor idling, hand reading steadily, but 2-4 points lower than normal.This may also indicate poor or contaminated engine oil.

Also, Contaminated engine oil? WTF is that going to do? I suppose I can try changing the oil. I didnt do it since it came from the shop with the oil in it now.

I have a hard time with bad rings cause the engine ran real good before the timing chain snapped. I dont think the timing chain snapping will degrade the rings that bad. Am I wrong? Also, the thought crossed my mind that the timing chain was put on one tooth off. Can I check that without removing the chain cover?

Elemental · 11-19-2007, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrach21061

My compression meter looks like "Normal Engine" but I run at 14 in Hg at idle so it looks more like "POOR RINGS". Does anyone know what normal readings are for this engine?

You have a 30 point spread between yoru highest and lowest. That is enough to be concerned.

Quote:

POOR RINGS: motor idling, hand reading steadily, but 2-4 points lower than normal.This may also indicate poor or contaminated engine oil.

Also, Contaminated engine oil? WTF is that going to do? I suppose I can try changing the oil. I didnt do it since it came from the shop with the oil in it now.

If a engine runs rich, gasoline falls into the oil pan and thins the oil and lowers compression...

Don't panic. Just change the oil.

scottagnew101 · 11-19-2007, 06:29 PM

this may be kinda dumb I dunno. But I had a cyl 1 and 3 misfire because of the throttle body pre-heater was leaking coolant down the spark plug wires and into the butt-end of the spark plug were the boot goes. Its just one more thing to check. The butts of my plugs were covered in a white film. Just the ones with the misfire.

Scott

mrach21061 · 11-20-2007, 03:26 PM

Ok, I changed the oil and inside the oil fill tube and the inside of the oil fill cap had coolant in it! The cap has a few drops of water in there and i stuck my finger in the oil fill tube and there was some foamy oil in there! Argh. Although the oil in the drain pan looked ok(not foamy). Ill check it when it cools off to see if the water will sit on top. I assume this is bad head gasket install from the shop when they did the valve work. Im going to take it back to the shop to see what they have to say. Im have no confidence in this shop but I have no other choice hopefully they will be willing to tear it down and fix it(for free), if not i guess I will be replacing head gaskets. Is there anywhere else the coolant can come in contact with the oil? They did replace the timing chain cover also.

KDamericano · 11-20-2007, 03:51 PM

If you don't have any confidence in the shop, tell them to either give you your money back, or pay to have it done at a shop you trust. Clearly, they jacked this one up. Also, pretty much every shop out there has a 1 year replacement warranty on all work they do.
- No, there's nowhere else coolant can come into contact with the oil. That should never occur. Sometimes, if your vehicle is used frequently for short driving trips and does not reach operating temp. you can have some slight condensation build up on the oil cap. But it should not be coolant.
If you take the cap off your coolant reservoir, and let your engine idle, do you see bubbles coming up in the expansion tank?

11-13-2007, 05:15 PM	#1 (permalink)
mrach21061 Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 43 Gallery: 0	Misfire HELP! I posted a while back in a different thread but im creating a new fresh thread to clear things up. I need to know whats wrong with my engine. Heres the story: DRY COMPRESSION: 1-140 psi 2-167 psi 3-147 psi 4-140 psi 5-167 psi 6-167 psi 7-167 psi 8-146 psi WET COMPRESSION: 1-150 psi 2-175 psi 3-160 psi 4-160 psi 5-175 psi 6-175 psi 7-180 psi 8-163 psi VACUUM: at ilde: 14 in Hg fluctuates (jumps) by only 0.5 in Hg at 2000 rpm: 20 in Hg fluctuates (jumps) by only 0.5 in Hg Problem started after some valves were replaced from my timing chain snapping. I didnt do the work but I bought 3 sets of valves for the shop and they lapped them in themselves rather than taking it to a head shop (I was being cheap). Computer gives a code for cylinder 1 misfire and the engine runs rough on idle and a little smoother at higher rpms. The shop had the dealer computer hooked up to it and I saw some numbers that looked like maybe knock sensor readings. The only one that showed high numbers (maybe 4 or 5?) was cyl 1. The others were maybe 1 or 2? All spark plugs have some black soot on the metal part but cyl 1 has black soot on the ceramic part also. Also I noticed a little bit of oil in the intake manifold where the PCV valve goes into the manifold? When I take the pcv hose off the intake I get a little smoke comming out of the hose while running. I think this is normal. Please let me know what you think, any insight would be helpfull.

11-13-2007, 08:29 PM	#2 (permalink)
Rovin4life Former NAS LR TECH, Current AUS LR TECH Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: DOWN UNDER Posts: 1,668 Gallery: 0	whats the freeze frame data from the misfire code. possible issue with the reluctor ring but need the info first. and the engine is ok. __________________ I work on Rovers. Got a question just ask.

11-15-2007, 06:22 PM	#5 (permalink)
stolenheron 2004 Discovery II driver Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Fort Myers, Florida Posts: 1,449 Gallery: 6	i donno, my buddy just had the same thing happen on his BMW 323i in cylinder 1 (PO301), if you find anything out i'm interested too. __________________ 2004 Discovery II SE7 - My Ride 2006 LR3 SE - Dad's Ride

11-18-2007, 02:13 PM	#8 (permalink)
Rovin4life Former NAS LR TECH, Current AUS LR TECH Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: DOWN UNDER Posts: 1,668 Gallery: 0	check everything first, that includes pulling on the wire and checking the fuel injector wiring. __________________ I work on Rovers. Got a question just ask.

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11-14-2007, 06:13 AM	#3 (permalink)
mrach21061 Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 43 Gallery: 0	Im not sure I know what freeze frame data is? Is it the actual code number or is it something I need to get from the dealer computer? The code is P0301 if im not mistaken. I had a misfire code on cyl3 and general misfire code P1300 at one point but I think this was from doing compression tests. Is there any way I can visually inspect the reluctor ring? This is my Brain Fart: I looked in the Workshop manual about the CKP sensor. It says if the output wires are reversed there is a 3 degree advance in ignition timing. This would explain my carbon buildup on all spark plugs and rough running and maybe since cyl1 has the worst compression thats the one that is misfireing? What do you think?

11-15-2007, 04:06 PM	#4 (permalink)
mrach21061 Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 43 Gallery: 0	Rovin, Heres the Codes Most of them are from doing compression tests: P0300 P0301 P0308 P0304 P0303 P0302 P0301 P1668 Pending Here's the Freeze Data for the P0301: RPM 636 Load Value 3.5% Temp 197 F Short Term Fuel Trim1 0.0% Long Term Fuel Trim1 0.7% Short Term Fuel Trim2 9.3% Long Term Fuel Trim2 1.5% Short Term Fuel Trim3 -100.6% Long Term Fuel Trim3 ? didnt get it Long Term Fuel Trim4 -100.6% Short Term Fuel Trim4 -100.6% Vehicle Speed 0MPH Fuel System 1 Open2 Fuel System 2 CLSD I cleared the codes out and drove it down the street then I got another P0301, Here's the Freeze data for this one: RPM 1131 Load Value 7.4% Temp 217 F Short Term Fuel Trim1 0.7% Long Term Fuel Trim1 0.7% Short Term Fuel Trim2 3.1% Long Term Fuel Trim2 1.5% Short Term Fuel Trim3 -100.6% Long Term Fuel Trim3 -100.6% Long Term Fuel Trim4 -100.6% Short Term Fuel Trim4 -100.6% Vehicle Speed 24MPH Fuel System 1 CLSD Fuel System 2 CLSD Does this look like anything is wrong?

11-16-2007, 05:55 AM	#6 (permalink)
Disco Mike Moderator Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Parker, Colorado Posts: 5,166 Gallery: 0	Tell your buddy he has a misfire on number one and to check his plug nd wire. Mike

11-16-2007, 05:58 AM	#7 (permalink)
mrach21061 Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 43 Gallery: 0	Stolenheron, Usually the first thing is to change your spark plugs and wires. I have 7 mo old Magnacor wires and new plugs. Unless the wires were acidentally cut by the shop when they took the heads off. I think I have a different problem, not that simple.

11-19-2007, 04:38 AM	#9 (permalink)
mrach21061 Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 43 Gallery: 0	I have checked the signal going to cyl1 fuel injector, its good. I can try to jiggle the wires but is there anything else I should check? Maybe put a new spark plug wire on Cyl1? What else should I check before I pull the head off? I did notice a lot of oil in the intake after the timing chain snapped. Would this dammage any sensors in the intake?

11-19-2007, 06:39 AM	#11 (permalink)
mrach21061 Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 43 Gallery: 0	My compression meter looks like "Normal Engine" but I run at 14 in Hg at idle so it looks more like "POOR RINGS". Does anyone know what normal readings are for this engine? POOR RINGS: motor idling, hand reading steadily, but 2-4 points lower than normal.This may also indicate poor or contaminated engine oil. Also, Contaminated engine oil? WTF is that going to do? I suppose I can try changing the oil. I didnt do it since it came from the shop with the oil in it now. I have a hard time with bad rings cause the engine ran real good before the timing chain snapped. I dont think the timing chain snapping will degrade the rings that bad. Am I wrong? Also, the thought crossed my mind that the timing chain was put on one tooth off. Can I check that without removing the chain cover?

11-19-2007, 06:29 PM	#13 (permalink)
scottagnew101 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 142 Gallery: 0	this may be kinda dumb I dunno. But I had a cyl 1 and 3 misfire because of the throttle body pre-heater was leaking coolant down the spark plug wires and into the butt-end of the spark plug were the boot goes. Its just one more thing to check. The butts of my plugs were covered in a white film. Just the ones with the misfire. Scott

11-20-2007, 03:26 PM	#14 (permalink)
mrach21061 Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 43 Gallery: 0	Ok, I changed the oil and inside the oil fill tube and the inside of the oil fill cap had coolant in it! The cap has a few drops of water in there and i stuck my finger in the oil fill tube and there was some foamy oil in there! Argh. Although the oil in the drain pan looked ok(not foamy). Ill check it when it cools off to see if the water will sit on top. I assume this is bad head gasket install from the shop when they did the valve work. Im going to take it back to the shop to see what they have to say. Im have no confidence in this shop but I have no other choice hopefully they will be willing to tear it down and fix it(for free), if not i guess I will be replacing head gaskets. Is there anywhere else the coolant can come in contact with the oil? They did replace the timing chain cover also.

11-20-2007, 03:51 PM	#15 (permalink)
KDamericano Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 179 Gallery: 0	If you don't have any confidence in the shop, tell them to either give you your money back, or pay to have it done at a shop you trust. Clearly, they jacked this one up. Also, pretty much every shop out there has a 1 year replacement warranty on all work they do. - No, there's nowhere else coolant can come into contact with the oil. That should never occur. Sometimes, if your vehicle is used frequently for short driving trips and does not reach operating temp. you can have some slight condensation build up on the oil cap. But it should not be coolant. If you take the cap off your coolant reservoir, and let your engine idle, do you see bubbles coming up in the expansion tank?

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