Electrical System Fault - Land Rover Forums : Land Rover and Range Rover Forum
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-10-2011, 08:22 AM Thread Starter
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Electrical System Fault

I am having some problems with my 2006 LR3. It started with the Tire Pressure warning light turning on. Then the truck wouldn't turn over. It wouldn't even try to start. Then I would see a Tire Pressure Monitoring Fault. I could get in and the car would start randomly. So It started and began to drive down the road and on the stereo I see something like Vehicle Fault: System is shutting down. Then the stereo and A/C and Dashboard shut down. Then when I got back home and put the car in park, I got a Parking Break Fault message and the parking break light started blinking.

Any ides as to how to troubleshoot this issue? Thanks for any help.
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-11-2011, 07:23 AM
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Original battery?

For the most part, when you start getting all sorts of warning messages that do not seem to make any sense, the problem is a minor and probably electrical.

In this case, probably either the alternator is faulty or more likely, the battery is weak.

If you still have the original battery, then just install a new one as five years is about all one can reasonably expect. If the new battery does not solve the problem, then you will have to look elsewhere but it is still probably something in the electrical system.

With the vehicle parked and everything off, the voltage across the battery terminals should be about 11.9 to 12.1 volts; anything much less suggests a battery working at less than optimum.

When the 3 is operating properly, and at idle, the voltage across the battery posts will run from 13.1 to 13.5 volts. That in itself does not mean however that the battery is OK, only that the charging system is probably OK. If you see numbers like 13.9 to 14.2, that suggests a battery that is low and being charged.

The link below is to files I have on disco3 related to the installation of a second battery. My view is that the 3 is so electrically dependent, a dual battery setup is a good insurance policy against walking. In addition to jpg's, there are also some pdf's related to various battery types and sizes. The 3 takes an H7 or H8 battery size, and the Land Rover replacement is usually an Interstate. The H7 is less long and fits easier and the H8 size is the exact replacement, but not as easy to get.

DISCO3.CO.UK Photo Gallery - Traxide Dual Battery install in LHDrive

2005 LR3 HSE 4.4L V8 petrol; Traxide dual battery kit; Rear Cargo area LED lighting; PIAA 2500K H11 Yellow Ion fog light bulbs; Patch cellular antenna to underside of interior of glass roof; CounterAct LT-2 capacitive corrosion control system; LLumar AIR80 Blue Low E clear Infra Red heat reducing side window tint; Manual upper rear door cable release; Schrader valve "air in" mod to OEM air tank; Akebono ceramic pads on OEM solid vented rotors; LR4 hitch receiver; Wiggs D4 Bluetooth Module; 3 Blink signal light feature; Clock on the Dash; D4 Backup Camera; 2015/16 Nav Data update.
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-11-2011, 08:48 AM Thread Starter
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That puts my mind at ease. I was sure it was the main ECU. I'll replace the battery and report back. And thanks for the second battery installation instructions. That sounds like a great idea.
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-11-2011, 10:10 AM
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How to wreck the ECU.

Since you mentioned the ECU, yes, you can wreck it by cleaning up the engine and battery area with a car wash spray hose. Well actually the module I am referring to is called the Transmission Control Module.

It is located behind the starting battery - you will see it when you remove the battery. Per the jpg's, you will see something that appears to be located within a waterproof plastic case. Not quite true. The case has no back; only a front that sort of snaps over the tin box that carries the electronics.

You can sort of help a bit by wrapping electrical tape around the top of the two rubber wiring boots as water will travel down into the electrical connectors within - not exactly one of Land Rovers better designs and don't ever stop when doing a creek crossing.
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2005 LR3 HSE 4.4L V8 petrol; Traxide dual battery kit; Rear Cargo area LED lighting; PIAA 2500K H11 Yellow Ion fog light bulbs; Patch cellular antenna to underside of interior of glass roof; CounterAct LT-2 capacitive corrosion control system; LLumar AIR80 Blue Low E clear Infra Red heat reducing side window tint; Manual upper rear door cable release; Schrader valve "air in" mod to OEM air tank; Akebono ceramic pads on OEM solid vented rotors; LR4 hitch receiver; Wiggs D4 Bluetooth Module; 3 Blink signal light feature; Clock on the Dash; D4 Backup Camera; 2015/16 Nav Data update.
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-12-2011, 05:19 AM
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actually what you are getting is a can bus problem. Most likely the high speed can line is going down affecting the starting of the vehicle. Once it goes down it causes the other bus lines to go down so you see stuff shut off while driving.

You will need to find the source of the fault as when it happens the vehicle shuts down and won't allow the vehicle to start. If the battery were at fault you would only get a hard start or no start with no actions.

I used to work on Rovers. Got a question just ask, need a Rover looked at, Albany, New York.
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-16-2011, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
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OK, I have an update. I installed a new battery and it has started every time since. In the 4 days that I have had the new battery, I had one outing where the system shut down a rebooted twice while driving down the road. But that is it so far. I am sure I am just buying my time and it will occur again. I will try to get a fault code from it before it shuts down again.
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-16-2011, 06:46 PM
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Tried a hard reset?

What you are saying is that if you ignore all the blinking lights and the like, your 3 is now routinely both starting up and running - for the time being anyway. I of course, share your sense of foreboding.

As such, you might try what is called a hard reset. The purpose of that is to remove/clear/erase some of the trouble codes that have built up in the various recording systems. One hears stories of the systems being so full of codes from a previous fault that even if the vehicle has been fixed, the trouble sensing systems keeps tripping over the old codes. That is why dealers will clear fault codes after "fixing" a problem.

Unfortunately, not all codes can be cleared via a hard reset - many codes can only be cleared with the T4 or a Faultmate however it costs nothing to try the procedure and sometimes it works.

Also if you have a volt meter, I would keep a watch on the battery voltage across the + and - terminals of your new battery when the 3 is shut down - and particularly in the morning before you start up just to see if voltage is being drained overnight.

In brief, to start the hard reset process, open the hood but close all doors and let your 3 go to sleep - no radio display etc.
It is often a good idea to have a window rolled down and the key in your pocket whenever fooling about the vehicle.

Disconnect the ground battery terminal from the battery.
Disconnect the positive battery terminal from the battery.

Connect the negative cable to the positive cable, (NOT the battery). You will need a short length, (a foot or so), of light gauge, (14 to 18 gauge, AWG, stranded copper), wire to do this as there is not enough slack in the positive and negative battery cables for them to touch each other.

Hold them together for about a minute or so, (some say 5 to 10 minutes); you are discharging memory modules within the engine computer and elsewhere.

Reattach positive terminal to the battery.
Reattach negative terminal to the battery.

Start engine and hopefully no warning lights.
Reset time on the radio - note that the station presets are still there as not everything is erased. Nothing much else needs resetting either.

This is a link to a thread in disco3 re hard reset.

DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Hard Reset

2005 LR3 HSE 4.4L V8 petrol; Traxide dual battery kit; Rear Cargo area LED lighting; PIAA 2500K H11 Yellow Ion fog light bulbs; Patch cellular antenna to underside of interior of glass roof; CounterAct LT-2 capacitive corrosion control system; LLumar AIR80 Blue Low E clear Infra Red heat reducing side window tint; Manual upper rear door cable release; Schrader valve "air in" mod to OEM air tank; Akebono ceramic pads on OEM solid vented rotors; LR4 hitch receiver; Wiggs D4 Bluetooth Module; 3 Blink signal light feature; Clock on the Dash; D4 Backup Camera; 2015/16 Nav Data update.
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-23-2011, 08:40 AM Thread Starter
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OK, LR3 stopped turning over again. The first warning I see is still 'Tire Pressure Monitoring Fault'. Not sure if that has anything to do with the true issue.

I tried the hard reset approach but that did not help. I used a 12 gauge AWG copper wire and kept it on for at least 5 minutes. The clock did not reset so I am wondering if I did something wrong.

I have not tested the battery with a voltage meter yet so the alternator is not ruled out

I purchased an Innovo 3130 code reader, plugged it in and it says no DTS codes are stored in the vehicle. The yellow led light is on the unit, however. Also, there are several monitor icons blinking, which means they have not run. The [cat][eva][air][o2s] and [egr] icons are blinking. I would like to get those to run but have no idea how to do that. I am sure I can gain more information if I can get all of the monitors to run.

If it is the high speed bus failing in the CAN, how difficult is that to replace? I have the Workshop Manual. Also, Are there any troubleshooting steps specific for the CAN I can try?

Thanks for all of your replies, I am learning a lot and determined to get this resolved

Last edited by mackdoyle; 09-23-2011 at 12:43 PM.
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-23-2011, 02:44 PM
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Low Speed Bus maybe or perhaps key?

I still think the solution is something simple - finding the solution however, is not so simple.

If you have the electrical drawings, page 180 and 181 of section 418 shows a reference to the tyre pressure monitoring control module (D286) on what Land Rover calls CAN Bus - Medium Speed. I did not really see any reference to the TPMS on the high speed bus wiring; also on the Med Speed buss is something called the Parking Air control module, but I think this refers to the optional backup sensors - the radar, and nothing to do with the parking brake. In fact, the parking brake module is on the High Speed bus. Somehow I doubt both busses have gone down.

I really hope it is nothing to do with the CAN busses as that is something I know nothing about other than the electronics for them seems to be located somewhere under the radio - like behind the heater controls - the optical is there anyway.

I think more research with your voltmeter is required. The real question is does the engine not start because the battery is low, or the battery is fully charged and the engine just will not start?

A not fully charged battery can suggest either the alternator failing or there is a significant draw on the battery when the engine is not running. If it seems something like a discharge when parked, then one can disconnect the negative post when the vehicle is parked and see if upon reattachment the next morning or whatever, that your 3 starts and kind of runs OK.

If the battery remains near fully charged and the engine will not turn over, then per Rovin4life, something in the control systems is trying to protect you and disallows the start as the systems think something is wrong.

Do you have a second key? If for some reason the anti theft systems did not like your current key, that can inhibit starts or probably shut you down.

2005 LR3 HSE 4.4L V8 petrol; Traxide dual battery kit; Rear Cargo area LED lighting; PIAA 2500K H11 Yellow Ion fog light bulbs; Patch cellular antenna to underside of interior of glass roof; CounterAct LT-2 capacitive corrosion control system; LLumar AIR80 Blue Low E clear Infra Red heat reducing side window tint; Manual upper rear door cable release; Schrader valve "air in" mod to OEM air tank; Akebono ceramic pads on OEM solid vented rotors; LR4 hitch receiver; Wiggs D4 Bluetooth Module; 3 Blink signal light feature; Clock on the Dash; D4 Backup Camera; 2015/16 Nav Data update.
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-24-2011, 12:17 PM
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High speed can line allows the vehicle to start, medium speed is for hvac, radio and few other things.

turn the key on and watch what goes off. if a module is good it will go on and off. With the exception of the ecu and the battery light. Those that are good are going off cause they are good. ABS is actually the end of the line as well.

You can diagnose half your problem by reading what the vehicle is telling you. Rovers do talk, you just have to listen.

I used to work on Rovers. Got a question just ask, need a Rover looked at, Albany, New York.
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-24-2011, 03:17 PM
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pretty good hearing required

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Originally Posted by Rovin4life View Post
You can diagnose half your problem by reading what the vehicle is telling you. Rovers do talk, you just have to listen.
My complements. I would say that your hearing is by the sound of it, very good. Thanks for the tip re the lights going on and off, or not! That I found very interesting.

I thought the LR display was just a nice Christmas tree but instead it is a singing Christmas tree that to an astute listener, can sing more than Silent Night.

I was recently in a Volvo tractor trailer prime mover and I think it actually has the LR3 beat when it comes to warning lights - closer to a 747, I would say. I suppose those lights "talk" as well.

2005 LR3 HSE 4.4L V8 petrol; Traxide dual battery kit; Rear Cargo area LED lighting; PIAA 2500K H11 Yellow Ion fog light bulbs; Patch cellular antenna to underside of interior of glass roof; CounterAct LT-2 capacitive corrosion control system; LLumar AIR80 Blue Low E clear Infra Red heat reducing side window tint; Manual upper rear door cable release; Schrader valve "air in" mod to OEM air tank; Akebono ceramic pads on OEM solid vented rotors; LR4 hitch receiver; Wiggs D4 Bluetooth Module; 3 Blink signal light feature; Clock on the Dash; D4 Backup Camera; 2015/16 Nav Data update.

Last edited by bbyer; 09-25-2011 at 01:52 PM. Reason: " " added around talk
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-25-2011, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovin4life View Post
You can diagnose half your problem by reading what the vehicle is telling you. Rovers do talk, you just have to listen.
This made me laugh. My dad, who's been dead lo these many years, was a Rover man -- had several of the old saloons, a couple of 60s and a 90, but never one of the "Cyclops" 75s -- he wanted one, but my mum thought they were ugly and you know how that goes...

He gave me my first driving lessons and my first lessons in mechanics. He always told me to listen to the car -- because it would tell you what you wanted to know. He also classified noises as "cheap", "expensive" and "replacement vehicle".

I spent a lot of time listening to his elderly Rovers complaining about their assorted ills.
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-25-2011, 01:48 PM
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now a days to listen to a Rover requires not just a good set of ears but a good set of eyes as you watch what the vehicle is doing when the electrical disturbance occurs.

From there logic is required as using logic dictates what is happening and what can cause that to happen. Plus knowledge of all the systems and in depth knowledge of the art of diagnosis.

I used to work on Rovers. Got a question just ask, need a Rover looked at, Albany, New York.
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 10-06-2011, 12:00 PM Thread Starter
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OK, so I took it to the shop. Evidently is was the instrument cluster, which the medium BUS passes through. everything is fixed but they are saying they have to run some kind of reprogramming step and they have to get the codes from Land Rover. Land Rover America can't help them out so they are waiting on Land Rover UK. I assume it is associated with my VIN or something. Does this sound right?
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 10-06-2011, 04:59 PM
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Ten bucks says they are wrong. medium speed can bus doesn't cause the vehicle to not start. its the high speed. medium speed controls the non essential stuff.the instrument cluster puts out the medium speed can line only after the high speed can line checks out first.

I used to work on Rovers. Got a question just ask, need a Rover looked at, Albany, New York.
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