61 series II 109 SW restoration

[DougG]

I am in the early stages of a frame off restoration of a 61 series II 109 SW. I'm starting to think about engine and transmission options. Just wanted to get some opinions. Should I keep the 2.25 motor and recondition it, should I just get a rebuilt 2.25 or a Davis conversion? Should I get rid of the series II tranny and get a rebuilt series III? I have a new galvanized frame, and have the 109 dismantled. I plan on putting a Salisbury in the rear, parabolics and OME all around. The truck will basically be used for fun; driving around town, doing some moderate off-roading, no rock crawling. Maybe a drive to the Adirondacks, or Vermont. Not much long distance traveling. I'm not expecting it to go very fast, but I want it to start reliably and have the potential of being a daily driver, or every other day. I also want it to look original on the outside, but doesn't have to have the original engine and drive train although I would prefer the 2.25 just for authenticity.
Thanks,
Doug
96 RR
61 Series II

[TerryS]

A 2 1/4 litre, in good order, is exceptionally reliable, and will almost always start with a touch of the starter. About all that makes them more reliable is a transistorized ignition, replacing the points. The best, simple addition, other than Petronics ignition, is a rebuilt head with hardened valveseats for unleaded fuel, with an 8:1 compression ration. If you simply want to throw money at it and make an engine change, consider a 200Tdi diesel which is a very simple exchange, being a virtual bolt-in swap. An overdrive unit makes the truck more of a pleasure to drive if you intend on any highway miles.
Parabolics are a nice upgrade also, both in ride, and articulation, but a 109 isn't really suited well to offroading other than soft trails, fire roads etc..
An engine, other than Land Rover, is a step backwards, in terms of preserving it's value, assuming you intend on doing a thorough rebuild. There are lots of engines which will give you more HP and torque, but why bodge up a new frame with cuts to the old motormounts, new welded mounts (destroying the galvanized area around the welds) The older series trucks have enough limitations that simply giving it more power won't overcome.
The only thing you gain with a series 3 gearbox is syncrho in 1st & 2nd, but a 2A gearbox is much more sturdy. Easier to learn the proper way of shifting, anticipating your downshifts, and double clutching.

[DougG]

Thanks for the info Terry. Is there any way to turn my series II tranny into a IIa tranny, or should I acquire a IIa trans and rebuild it or buy a rebuilt one?
Doug

[TerryS]

Series 2s were from 1958 to 1961, and the 2A came out in 1961,(and ran to late 1971) so a '61 could be a 2 or a 2A, but from a practical standpoint, I'm not sure that there are and substantive differences in the gearbox used in an early 1961 or late 61. There have been many minor changes, during the run of a model year, but I'm 99% sure the gear cluster is the same.
Rebuilding a gearbox, given you have the time, and a clean space to spread the bits out, is not beyond the capability of anyone with reasonably good skills. Buying a rebuilt box is for the guy with no skills (or time), but the cash to offset that.

[DougG]

Mine is definately an early 61 series II trans. It has no prefix letter. From what I have heard, there are parts that are no longer available. I am not intimidated by doing a rebuild myself, I do most of the work on my Audi, my RR and now this 109, but I also have the cash to buy a rebuilt one. Not one to waste money, I rather rebuild if I could, plus I enjoy rebuilding stuff. What would I have to do to rebuild my transmission, what are the main parts?
Thanks!
Doug

[pickuprover]

I would dissagree with Terry that the 109 is limiting on offroading. I take mine through the heavy trails regularily. The only dissadvantage they really have is turn radius, but usually a couple of back and forths and you are around any obsticle. The only other issue is getting hung up on the frame over a lip of a hill, but that is easily learned how to avoid, as with anything, once you learn your truck you will be amazed at what it can do. I would say keep the early II tranny, the syncro is not all it is cracked up to be, and the box that you have is much stronger than a III. If the gearbox has no letter than it is pre 1960, but the parts are still available and in my opion these boxes are stronger than B and C suffix's... although you can use stronger layshaft and gear clusters..... The question I have though, is there anything wrong with the box you have? They are pretty strong and if there is no problem then why worry about it? If it is because it is unknown, then I would put it in and try it, it is not a big deal to pull it out afterwards (I can have mine out, minor work done on it, and back in by dinner.....) To rebuild it you would definately need new bearings, seals and gaskets.. after that, it would depend on when you got it apart if any gears are showing wear. If the box has oil still in it and that oil has been run in the box for a while before the rebuild, it can tell you a lot about the tranny, look for any metal filings (I actually glued a strong rare earth magnet on to the drain plug to collect any thing, so I can see it when I change fluids...)

[TerryS]

Originally Posted by pickuprover

The only dissadvantage they really have is turn radius, but usually a couple of back and forths and you are around any obsticle. The only other issue is getting hung up on the frame over a lip of a hill, .)

That's pretty much all I was refering to. Visibility isn't quite as good as a shorter wheelbase. Rear overhang, a bit longer than an 88", can inhibit your approach angle, but three leaf parabolics gives about 1 1/2" more lift.
The turning radius of my 110 is abit smaller than a 109 steering box, but add that to non PS, with a good tight front end, and in the woods can be good for bicep building.

The layshaft and bronze bushings are bound to be worn on your box. This makes them noisier, and cheap to replace.

[Landrovie]

I would definatly go with the 2 1/4 motor, like the previous posts said, it is quite reliable and if tuned properly runs well, smooth to. As for the gear box, I would say go with whatever is easiest, if you don't drive like a racecar driver around town and will be doing only light 4 wheeling then I wouldn't worry about breaking anything in which ever box you chose. Just make sure that you look through the box you are planning on installing, if used. I love my parabolic springs, they make the ride so much nicer and are much more forgiving.

[acornhoek]

Originally Posted by TerryS

The older series trucks have enough limitations that simply giving it more power won't overcome.

.....boy that's the truth.

I'll throw my vote in for the 2.25 too. I have a 109 SW as well, but with the added weight of a Carawagon. I can get her going 70 mph on some stretches but at that speed you're committed to a straight line. No I'm not doing 85 mph down the highway, but the 2.25 is very reliable and very capable off road with the Series low range added in.......I've taken my heavy rig up some steep rock stuff.

Stay w/ the 2.25 and squeeze some more power out of her by doing what's been mentioned above.......hotter cam, tweaked head, Pertronix, etc.

The other thing to keep in mind is that if you ever go to sell her (not that you would) the resale value drops dramatically with a non-stock engine....

God speed on the rebuild.......

[DougG]

Thanks a lot , I appreciate the info.
Doug