Diesels in Series vehicles?

[MPi-KMS-72]

Originally Posted by Hillbilly Raider

this discussion is one of the reasons i have moved away from the sport if you will and am now focusing on overlanding.
today (to ME) it seems that it is all about how fast and how rough you can drive rather than skill?
where once it was a trophy for NOT damaging your truck.... now it seems that the truck that did most damage to its self and the florna and forna wins?
google a fab film called "first overland" and see how far they travelled in the "old days"

Google Gerhard Neumann while you are at it, he drove a Willys MB jeep from China to Jerusalem in 1947 or so, they cheated a bit by taking a freighter to Bangkok, but considering that they were not a funded and supported expedition- rather they were just a couple trying to get home from China ahead of the Communists, and the fact that they were traveling in a well used jeep, welll I can cut them some slack on the shortcut...

Then in January 1947, he flew to Honolulu and Clarice boarded a ship bound for China. In Honolulu, Neumann picked up one of the C-46s Chennault had bought to form his Chinese National Relief and Rehabilitation Airline and became a member of the crew which flew it across the Pacific to Canton. Three weeks after settling in Canton, he welcomed Clarice and her dog to China. Then they moved to Shanghai where Chennault established CNRRA's main base. There Gerhard supervised the mechanics servicing the C-46s now carrying weapons and ammunition to the Chinese Nationalist fighting the Chinese Communists advancing down from the north. When the Communists could not be stopped, Chennault moved his base back to Canton after marrying Peking born, Hong Kong educated Anna Chan just before Christmas, 1947. But it soon became apparent that Canton would fall and the Neumanns decided to return to the States. The Neumanns chose an unbelievable route home. After Clarice suggested they drive to Europe or North Africa and catch a boat to the States, Gerhard was stunned at first. But then he enthusiastically agreed. He bought two used Royal Air Force jeeps in Hong Kong and built one good one from them in Claude White's garage. Then on October 7th, 1947, a freighter took them to Bangkok, Thailand. There they began an incredible 10,000 mile journey across Asia over the most rugged roads in the world.

First they headed for Rangoon, Burma, but the raging Mae River forced them back to Bangkok. Then they headed north and reached Mandalay in two weeks. From there they made a six-day trip down the Irrawady River and up the Chindwin River to a road leading to Imphal. Beyond, they climbed the Kohima Pass into India and crossed the Brahmaputra River on a barge. At Siliguri, they caught a glimpse of Mount Everest. Near Tibet, they swung southward and crossed the Ganges River on a railroad bridge before arriving at Agra, the site of the Taj Mahal. From New Dehli, they crossed the frontier between Pakistan and India. There they talked warring soldiers into a truce while they took their pictures. Then they went over the Kyber Pass into Afghanistan and encountered snow at Kabul. Crossing into Iran beyond Herat, they arrived in Teheran. They then drove north to Tabriz, only to learn that roads into Turkey and Iraq were blocked by snow. Undaunted, they retreated and crossed into Iraq near Hamadan. They reached Baghdad on December 31st, 1947. Afterwards, they crossed the Euphrates River and reached Amman, Jordan. A British convoy escorted them safely across the Jordan River into Palestine. After selling their jeep in Jerusalem, they escaped an Arab ambush and reached Tel Aviv. From there they flew to Italy and France and finally sailed aboard a ship to New York.

http://nationalaviation.blade6.donet...5&Parent_ID=-1

An amazing journey for an amazing man- Get his book "Herman the German" for more insight into his overland journey.

[AlohaRover]

What was the original question? lol

[archaeology_student]

Originally Posted by Hillbilly Raider

this discussion is one of the reasons i have moved away from the sport if you will and am now focusing on overlanding.
today (to ME) it seems that it is all about how fast and how rough you can drive rather than skill?
where once it was a trophy for NOT damaging your truck.... now it seems that the truck that did most damage to its self and the florna and forna wins?
google a fab film called "first overland" and see how far they travelled in the "old days"

Yup, I totally agree. Oh, and I asked the defender question because I wasn't sure Hillbilly. If you are not sure, you ask a question that's how I was taught.

Originally Posted by AlohaRover

What was the original question? lol

I was just curious about diesel upgrades for a Series. My 2.25 litre diesel just does not do it on the highway, and it's a struggle going uphill on the highway I just wanted to know if there were other options besides LR diesels that worked without much conflict for installing.

One nice thing though is that the people who tailgate me back off after a few minutes of diesel clouds being sputtered out

Slow and steady wins the race

[MPi-KMS-72]

the 2.25d is ok, drive slow, be courteous to other drivers, and enjoy the trip.

Did you read this? I know you used to post there:
http://forum.landrovernet.com/showth...=perkins+prima

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton

200Tdi's are noticable where the turbo kicks in, but its at such low rpms that it still equals really low crawling speeds. In short a 200tdi has penty of grunt from tickover in 1st low.

300Tdi's are even better and it's almost impossible to tell exactly where the turbo kicks in and they pull from almost no revs at all.

They have no grunt in low revs.

I thought this discussion about whther to convert to a diesel or not. It seems to have changed to whether a diesel can compete on a trials course.

If you want a diesel that will pull down low, you need to go for something bigger than a 2.5 litre. Should try something at least the size of the Izuzu.

[p76rangie]

You can stop the personal opinions, here are the engine specs

Engine> Power (KW/HP@RPM) >Torque (NM/LbFt@RPM)> Weight

Rover
LR 2.25L Petrol> 52/70 @ 4000> 163/120 @ 2000> 204 Kg / 450 lbs
LR 2.5L Petrol> 62/83 @ 4000> 181/133 @ 2000
LR 2.25 Diesel> 45/60 @ 4000> 140/103 @ 1800
LR 2.5 Diesel> 51/68 @ 4000> 158/117 @ 1800
LR 2.5 T Diesel> 63/84 @ 4000> 203/150 @ 1800
LR 200 tdi> 83/111 @ 4000> 198/146 @ 1800
LR 300 tdi> 84/113 @ 4000> 265/195 @ 1800
LR td5 (Def)> 90/121 @ 4200> 300/221 @ 1950
LR td5 (Disc)> 101/135 @ 4200> 300/221 @ 1950
LR 2.4 diesel> 90/121 @ 3500> 360/265 @ 2000

BMW 2.5L 6 cyl (Used in RR)> 100/134 @ 4400> 270/199 @ 2300
2.6L LR 6 cyl (7:1)> 67/90 @ 4500> 178/131 @ 1500
2.6 L LR 6 cyl (7.8:1)> 71/95 @ 4500> 181/134 @ 1750> About 600 lbs dry

3 L Rover passenger 6 cyl (8.75> 115hp@4500 > 164@1500
LR 3.5L V8> 85/114 @ 4000> 251/185 @ 2500> 144 KG / 318lbs
LR 3.5L V8 (Stage I)> 68/91 @ 3500>
LR 3.9L V8 (US spec)> 136/182 @ 4750> 312/230 @ 3100
LR 4.0L V8 (US spec)> 136/182 @ 4750> 315/232@ 3000
LR 4.6L V8 (94 RR non-US spec)> 157/211 @ 4750> 358/264 @ 3000
Rover/Jag 4.4L V8> 220/295 @ 5,500> 425 / 314@ 4,000
Notes: Rated economy in '06 LR3, L/100km (mpg) : City 20.9 (11.2) Highway 11.6 (20.3)
Rover/Jag 4L V6 (petrol)> 160 /250 @ 4500> 360 / 266 @ 3000
Notes: Rated economy in '06 LR3, L/100km (mpg) : City 21 (11.2) Highway 11.9 (20)
Rover/Jag 2.7L TDV6> 140/190 @ 4,000> 440 / 325 @ 1,900
Notes: Rated economy in '06 LR3, L/100km (mpg) : City 11.5 (24.6) Highway 8.2 (34.5)
Rover/Jag 3.6L TDV8> 200/ @ 4,000> 640 / 325 @ 2,000/ to 2500 RPM (flat curve)
Notes: Rated economy in '07 RR Sport, L/100km (mpg) : City 14.7 (19.3) Highway 9 (31.4) with 6 speed auto transmission

Santana
4 cyl 2.3L petrol > 51/ 68 @ 4000> 163/ 120 @ 1750
4 cyl 2.3L diesel> 45/ 60 @ 4000 > 139/ 103 @ 1800
6 cyl 3.4L petrol > 77/103 @ 4000> 240/ 177 @ 1500
6 cyl 3.4L diesel> 70/ 94 @ 4000> 207/153 @ 1800
Notes: The Santana 6 cyl design is basically the 4 cyl engines with 2 cylinders added.

Nissan
SD33 Diesel 6 cyl, no turbo> 70/94 @ 3600> 217/160 @ 1800> 304 KG / 672 lbs dry
SD33T Diesel 6 cyl, no intercooler> 105/141 @ 3800> 255/188 @ 2000> 305 KG/ 673 Lbs
Notes: SD33 from '76 - '80 International Harvester Scout, SD33T from 1980 only
LD28 Diesel 6 cyl, no turbo> 69/93 @ 4400> 200/148 @ 2000
Notes: from '80 - '83 Nissan Maxima

Toyota (Land Cruiser engines)
B Diesel, 3 L 4 cyl> 57/76 @ 3600> 188/139 @ 2200
3B Diesel, 3.4L, 4 cyl> 63/84 @ 3500> 206/152 @ 2200
3B-T Diesel, 3.4L 4 cyl> 91/122 @ 3400> 285/210 @ 2000

ISUZU
4BD1 (3.9L 4 cyl diesel)> 66 / 86 @ 3200> 245/ 181 @ 1900rpm> 711 pounds dry
Notes: 32 inches long, 28 inches wide and about 28 inches tall.
4BD1-T (3.9L 4 cyl Diesel)> 90/ 121@ 3000> 314/232 @ 2200> 721 pounds dry
Notes: 31 inches long, 27 inches wide and about 30 inches tall.

[onslow]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

You can stop the personal opinions, here are the engine specs

Engine> Power (KW/HP@RPM) >Torque (NM/LbFt@RPM)> Weight

Rover
LR 2.25L Petrol> 52/70 @ 4000> 163/120 @ 2000> 204 Kg / 450 lbs
LR 2.5L Petrol> 62/83 @ 4000> 181/133 @ 2000
LR 2.25 Diesel> 45/60 @ 4000> 140/103 @ 1800
LR 2.5 Diesel> 51/68 @ 4000> 158/117 @ 1800
LR 2.5 T Diesel> 63/84 @ 4000> 203/150 @ 1800
LR 200 tdi> 83/111 @ 4000> 198/146 @ 1800
LR 300 tdi> 84/113 @ 4000> 265/195 @ 1800
LR td5 (Def)> 90/121 @ 4200> 300/221 @ 1950
LR td5 (Disc)> 101/135 @ 4200> 300/221 @ 1950
LR 2.4 diesel> 90/121 @ 3500> 360/265 @ 2000

BMW 2.5L 6 cyl (Used in RR)> 100/134 @ 4400> 270/199 @ 2300
2.6L LR 6 cyl (7:1)> 67/90 @ 4500> 178/131 @ 1500
2.6 L LR 6 cyl (7.8:1)> 71/95 @ 4500> 181/134 @ 1750> About 600 lbs dry

3 L Rover passenger 6 cyl (8.75> 115hp@4500 > 164@1500
LR 3.5L V8> 85/114 @ 4000> 251/185 @ 2500> 144 KG / 318lbs
LR 3.5L V8 (Stage I)> 68/91 @ 3500>
LR 3.9L V8 (US spec)> 136/182 @ 4750> 312/230 @ 3100
LR 4.0L V8 (US spec)> 136/182 @ 4750> 315/232@ 3000
LR 4.6L V8 (94 RR non-US spec)> 157/211 @ 4750> 358/264 @ 3000
Rover/Jag 4.4L V8> 220/295 @ 5,500> 425 / 314@ 4,000
Notes: Rated economy in '06 LR3, L/100km (mpg) : City 20.9 (11.2) Highway 11.6 (20.3)
Rover/Jag 4L V6 (petrol)> 160 /250 @ 4500> 360 / 266 @ 3000
Notes: Rated economy in '06 LR3, L/100km (mpg) : City 21 (11.2) Highway 11.9 (20)
Rover/Jag 2.7L TDV6> 140/190 @ 4,000> 440 / 325 @ 1,900
Notes: Rated economy in '06 LR3, L/100km (mpg) : City 11.5 (24.6) Highway 8.2 (34.5)
Rover/Jag 3.6L TDV8> 200/ @ 4,000> 640 / 325 @ 2,000/ to 2500 RPM (flat curve)
Notes: Rated economy in '07 RR Sport, L/100km (mpg) : City 14.7 (19.3) Highway 9 (31.4) with 6 speed auto transmission

Santana
4 cyl 2.3L petrol > 51/ 68 @ 4000> 163/ 120 @ 1750
4 cyl 2.3L diesel> 45/ 60 @ 4000 > 139/ 103 @ 1800
6 cyl 3.4L petrol > 77/103 @ 4000> 240/ 177 @ 1500
6 cyl 3.4L diesel> 70/ 94 @ 4000> 207/153 @ 1800
Notes: The Santana 6 cyl design is basically the 4 cyl engines with 2 cylinders added.

Nissan
SD33 Diesel 6 cyl, no turbo> 70/94 @ 3600> 217/160 @ 1800> 304 KG / 672 lbs dry
SD33T Diesel 6 cyl, no intercooler> 105/141 @ 3800> 255/188 @ 2000> 305 KG/ 673 Lbs
Notes: SD33 from '76 - '80 International Harvester Scout, SD33T from 1980 only
LD28 Diesel 6 cyl, no turbo> 69/93 @ 4400> 200/148 @ 2000
Notes: from '80 - '83 Nissan Maxima

Toyota (Land Cruiser engines)
B Diesel, 3 L 4 cyl> 57/76 @ 3600> 188/139 @ 2200
3B Diesel, 3.4L, 4 cyl> 63/84 @ 3500> 206/152 @ 2200
3B-T Diesel, 3.4L 4 cyl> 91/122 @ 3400> 285/210 @ 2000

ISUZU
4BD1 (3.9L 4 cyl diesel)> 66 / 86 @ 3200> 245/ 181 @ 1900rpm> 711 pounds dry
Notes: 32 inches long, 28 inches wide and about 28 inches tall.
4BD1-T (3.9L 4 cyl Diesel)> 90/ 121@ 3000> 314/232 @ 2200> 721 pounds dry
Notes: 31 inches long, 27 inches wide and about 30 inches tall.

Where did you get this info as there are a few errors the 200 and 300 TDi produce exactly the same power and torque,also the 3.5 V8 figures are way out also

[archaeology_student]

p76rangie, thank you for the list

onslow, the numbers can be off. I've seen many webpages with differing numbers, but thanks to p76rangie for posting that info

[p76rangie]

Your right, you can't trust things on the net. But the specifaction seem to change everywhere you look. By my manual the 3.5ltr carbie motor put out 156BHP and 205 Lb Ft Torque.
The 200 Tdi and the 300Tdi did have the same specs in the Discovery, but not in the Defender. The power of the Defender on the 200Tdi was down on the Disco, where in the 300Tdi, they were the same at 111Bhp. The torque is wrong for the 300Tdi, but most of the figures are not too far out.

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

They have no grunt in low revs.

What do you consider to be low revs???

A stock TDI makes PEAK torque at around 1800rpm, I’d call that fairly low in the rpms. Also considering a 300Tdi still makes plenty of power and pulls from 1100rpm or lower and that#s in high range under normal road conditions.

Due to the torque multiplication factor of low range it’s even less of an issue.

Originally Posted by p76rangie

I thought this discussion about whther to convert to a diesel or not. It seems to have changed to whether a diesel can compete on a trials course.

Well as a rule the diesels are the preferred engine choice for competitive trials where low speed (VERY low speed) is frequently required.

So a trail would be of no more bother to it.

Originally Posted by p76rangie

If you want a diesel that will pull down low, you need to go for something bigger than a 2.5 litre. Should try something at least the size of the Izuzu.

Have you ever driven a good running or modified Tdi or Td5? Specifically off road?

Originally Posted by p76rangie

Your right, you can't trust things on the net. But the specifaction seem to change everywhere you look. By my manual the 3.5ltr carbie motor put out 156BHP and 205 Lb Ft Torque.
The 200 Tdi and the 300Tdi did have the same specs in the Discovery, but not in the Defender. The power of the Defender on the 200Tdi was down on the Disco, where in the 300Tdi, they were the same at 111Bhp. The torque is wrong for the 300Tdi, but most of the figures are not too far out.

A lot of the figures are quite a way out, especially compared to known UK HP/torque outputs.

Also I don’t think there was a discrepancy with the 200Tdi and output from Defender to Discovery it was also used in the Range Rover as well. But there are no known differences in the engines.

300Tdi’s are slightly different as some Discovery’s had CATS where Defenders didn’t along with EGR and a few of the latter Discovery’s had ECU controlled 300Tdi’s which Defenders never had.

Only the TD5 has different outputs but this is mostly down to the ECU although fixing the issue is more complex.

Another thing to note, PEAK numbers really don’t mean anything you need to see the profile of the curve to see where it is making its power.

[300bhp/ton]

LR 300 tdi:

113bhp @ 4000rpm
195lb ft @ 1800rpm

So at 1800rpm it in stock trim it makes almost as much torque as the 4.0 V8 makes at 3000rpm. The V8 is not likely to be making as much or more torque at 1800rpms.

I’d say that makes the diesel very good in the low rpms.

LR 4.0L V8 (US spec):

182bhp @ 4750rpm
23lb ft2@ 3000rpm


Typically a mildly modified Tdi engine (intercooler & tune) will see around 35% increase in HP/torque.

Making:

153bhp PEAK
But more importantly 263lb ft and it’ll still make it down as low as 1800rpm.

So in the low rpms a 2.5 Tdi engine can not only make more torque than a 4.0 EFI Rover V8 but due to the fact that HP = torque (lb ft) x rpm / 5252 it will also be making substantially more HP at that rpm as well.

Another thing to remember is how much power it can make over it’s rpm range. Tdi’s don’t rev much past 4000rpm (PEAK HP) but as they make PEAK torque at only 1800rpm it means their power band is in fact the vast majority of it’s entire rpm range.

With a V8 it may make some power down low, but we already know that PEAK torque isn’t until 3000rpm. At the end of the day the Rover V8 in 4.0 litre trim will make LESS power for more of the time.

Where the V8 wins out is at WOT the extra rpms available mean that higher PEAK HP can be achieved and ultimately be faster.

[p76rangie]

300Bhp, do you actually think about what you write. It would appear that you don't, but if you do, I feel sorry for you.

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

300Bhp, do you actually think about what you write. It would appear that you don't, but if you do, I feel sorry for you.

So once again you dodge questions posed to you and all you do is come back with a less than witty insult.

Have you ever driven a Tdi/Td5 off road?

What do you consider to be low rev?

And what part of my above post do you disagree with? Are you just pissed that you're wrong and are not man enough to admit it?

[p76rangie]

Yes I have driven Tdi's and TD5s and I go out with the same model vehicles in V8 and diesel form and can compare the differences quite easily. Also go out with and driven diesels in Auto and manual formats and can compare the differences in real life off-road situations.

What I consider low revs is below the turbo cut in.

I am not going to go through every point you attempt to make and state why it is wrong. You can have that to yourself.

[300bhp/ton]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

What I consider low revs is below the turbo cut in.

So seriously how well does your 3.5 pull from 1100rpm then?

Originally Posted by p76rangie

I am not going to go through every point you attempt to make and state why it is wrong. You can have that to yourself.

Why not you're happy to complain and winge at every other opportunity.