shoulder belts in an 88 soft top

[greenmeanie]

Originally Posted by zed

There's no 2 ways about it.. the series is not a crash friendly vehicle.. ergo the illegality of importing them and their defender distant cousins.

Seems to be VERY low on most peoples lists of things to upgrade as well.

I'm all for road tires.. disc brakes, decent suspension and sturdy harnesses.
.

All series vehicles are completely legal for import. As Defenders reach 25 years old they are also entirely legal to import. The 25 year rule waves the requirements for safety systems on import vehicles. Now they won't compare to a vehicle built in 08 but then then all series vehicles are at least 25 years old now and safety legislation was a lot different then.

You forgot to mention high back seats as a safety upgrade. If you're ever in a rear end shunt you'll discover just how lethal those OEM seats are.

Cheers
Gregor

[zed]

yes.. the high backs are definitely a must.

Growing so old that they are exempted from safety is hardly the point. they WERE illegal to import.. there...

Much like the collector guns. you can still kill people with them.. you're just not expected to use them.. so the restrictions are relaxed. I don't really understand why they would exempt vehicles after 25 years or collector guns. BUT.. I like them. I see far too many junk cars on the road though.

[greenmeanie]

Originally Posted by zed

yes.. the high backs are definitely a must.

Growing so old that they are exempted from safety is hardly the point. they WERE illegal to import.. there...

Every vehicle that is not tested by the DOT is illegal to import if it is under 25 years old regardless of its safety features. Even a vehicle that matches an existing model sold in the US must be brought in by an DOT approved RI if it is under the 25 year rule. That is VERY expensive.

As an extra reference Exmoor Trim in the UK sell seat belt kits for the series. They are not too expensive for something that could save your life and they are designed to fit your truck. Shipping to Hawaii would probably kill you though.

You might want to look at an Ex MOD role hoop as fitted to a 110 as it will fit your truck, adds a modicum of protection (It won't match a true role cage) and provides the shoulder mount for an inertia real seat belt. It should also fit under your canvas.

Cheers
Gregor

[msggunny]

Originally Posted by greenmeanie

You might want to look at an Ex MOD role hoop

Anyone know where to get one of those? I know someone around here sold them but the closest thing i can find now is the "show bar" that DAP sells.

Anyone wanna give me one?

[zed]

A roll hoop eh?

I was actually thinking of heading down to the 4x4 shop to have them fab one for me. I wouldn't trust a boxed one as a real roll bar. I know there are real roll bars sold.. but most of the time they're light bars. Hoops do nothing without cross bars.. Its all about the triangles.

If you can weld at all.. It'd probably be worth buying a cheap bender and doing one up.. i did it once.. after screwing up every bend and weld... i went commercial...

As for exmoor... they have nothing special there in the departments I was shopping.

THey do have a shoulder belt for the "center seat" but I'm not sure their install method is well advised.
Then again.. the center seat is only good for little people.. requiring a much lower percent of the seat belt's capability.

their prices are decent but shipping a defender seat to france from there would be cost prohibitive.

One of these days I'm going to get up to the junk yard and start looking for small seats.

Sucks.. the seats from my SCION or MINI would fit beautifully.. but are needed in them.

[greenmeanie]

Shoulder belts with no high mounting point are pretty lethal in a crash. If you run a soft top you should look at a means of providing that third high mounting point over your shoulder. In that context the Ex MOD hoop is good as it was designed for this, fits under a standard canvas and doesn't intrude into the load space. While it is not great it does provide considerably more protection than the stock hood sticks. In MOD nomenclature that is a roll hoop. Below is what you get which fits onto the body cappings:
LANDROVER DEFENDER MILITARY ROLL BAR on eBay, also, Land Rover, Car Parts, Cars, Parts Vehicles (end time 01-Jul-08 20:54:31 BST)


If you want true role protection then you need to go with something like this which is the bare minimum for ARC competition:
LAND ROVER SERIES 2A 3 AND DEFENDER ROLL CAGE BAR on eBay, also, Land Rover, Car Parts, Cars, Parts Vehicles (end time 03-Jul-08 14:41:28 BST)

Or you could go with a full Southdown exocage for about $5K but that was not what we were talking about.

Cheers
Gregor

[dsfloyd]

What are these seatbelts yall talk about

[zed]

there are seat belt fixings on the bulkhead..
Its nearly a straight pull. It will end up being about the same as the IN SEAT mounting of my GMC pickup.

Though I agree its not optimal. It is an upgrade from the hood stick attachment option. and adds a modern ELR seatbelt mechanism.

Note the picture above. Maybe I don't understand what you're talking about. I've seen some factory seat belts mounted with the reel behind the seat with a guide going over the top of the seat. These belts are meant to be used this way... It SHOULD be ok
Hopefully i'll never know.. knock on wood

[zed]

THOSE roll bars..

That's a light bar friend. It has no road use application. It may support the vehicle if dropped on its roof. But not in a roll. I mean.. better than nothing.. I don't see the harm in it. But Not much protection either.

Best to be an alert driver. Off roading aside.

[greenmeanie]

If I was talking about adding roll protection that would not be it. We are however, talking about seat belt mountings and for that purpose it is ideal.

The art of installing the third mounting point is that the seat belt should cross you chest and not your shoulder. If it is wrapping over your shoulder then it is a problem as, in a crash your body moves and it becomes easily possible that the belt will end up round your neck with predictable consequences. This is why manufacturers went from the over the shoulder system to the third mount type.

Cheers
Gregor

[zed]

I would think that would be more due to the movable seats.. I don't see the difference.. if you slip down or move sideways.. the geometry is the same.. but i'm a layman..I don't know for sure. I just know its fairly common in other cars with equally poor safety an as someone else said.. they came that way.

[zed]

Ok.. I've got a bit of a snag..
It didn't occur to me at the time that there was NO room on top of the bulkhead.

I just went out and got some proper bolts for the top of the bulkhead and put my factory belts there.. they really require an L bracket or something. The one's I saw at EXmoor were mounted funky compared to what I'll be getting.
I've not given up on that Idea yet though.. we'll see.

Another route I was thinking about.. was grabbing a piece of Bar stock channel, channel or the like.. and putting it UNDER the bed cap.. then bolting through that. Making an anchor point on my bed cap... yet another route is bolting to the wheel well top.. I'm skeptical as to its strength.. but a large enough plate underneath should provide adequate strength.

Hope I don't end up returning these belts.. but.. whatever makes it work in the end.

[zed]

FINALLY got my seat belts.
Not sure if they're the ones I want. But.. Pretty much ruling out a roll bar at this point.
Not that it would be much better anyway

I am thinking that where I have the belts clamped is where I want to mount this.
MAYBE put it on the top of the bed cap. Either way.. Figure that I will have to run some 1/8"-1/4" or more likely something in between.. steel bar or maybe.. just maybe angle under the cap. Rivet and bolt it .. Probably go the entire length and bolt through what must be where the top bolts on or something. There's oblong bolt holes the length of the cap. Figured I'd widen out this one for the belt and bolt the bar through the other 3 or 4.. If angle.. bolt and rivet.
That should keep the bolt from ripping out of the steel. and the steel should be anchored long enough and braced against the bulkhead not to buckle or rip up significantly.

Anyway.. you get the idea. Is it the best seat belt set up ever? no. Could someone with a knowledge of metallurgy and welding do a better job.. yes.. But I am what I am...

[greenmeanie]

Just for reference the seat belt mounting in a hardtop uses the mounting bolt for the hartop just next to the driver's seat back to secure the real. I think that's where your forward hoodstick is now mounted. Have a look at the reinforcement round that and you'll have a good idea of what's required.

The other thing to bear in mind is the tumbler in the inertia real that causes the seat belt to lock in an accident. You have to be careful that you mount the real in an orientation that allows the tumbler to work. A lot of universal belts allow you to adjust this but it is not something to ignore for the sake of a convenient mounting location/orientation.

Cheers
Gregor

[zed]

AH HA.. no.. I do not have an inertia reel.
I have Emergency Locking Retractor

(ELR) function allows the occupant to have free movement while buckled up, but in an emergency situation or crash the retractor instantly locks securing the occupant. This is accomplished by an inertia reel with which all of our retractable replacement seat belts are equipped. The inertia reel is "webbing sensitive," meaning that any sudden movement of the webbing (the seat belt strap) causes the retractor to instantly lock.

You know.. "old school".. but works for the roadster style.. not going to be mounted facing up and forward.

I did check the factory seat belt support. its a small gauge channel steel riveted to the front cap.. with a fine thread 1/2"(?) (standard seat belt) bolt.

I looked at some drag car seat belt mounting pages.. other peoples retro. Not to say they're experts.. but I manufactured a 18"x1"x1/8" bar with rounded edges bent down at the end so as not to puncture the sheet metal like a die when pulled hard. Similar but larger than some other weld/bolt in designs I found. Drilled out the first hole in the cap that was not a typical rivet hole. 2 holes behind the weld. Wanted to keep it on the side of the bed.. The welded part seems thinner and isn't directly attached to the aluminum.

I am planning to put steel rivets through the bar as it won't be contacting aluminum. Currently my rivets are too short and aluminum. The fittings are the required grade 5 1/2" diameter fine thread. NOT grade 8. Grade 8 was not recommended. Put a thick washer and lock washer on the bolt.. snugged it up. The bar, aluminum and cap make about a 1/4" slab of metal. riveted and bolted 18 inches back.

Its a pretty shallow angle pull over the shoulder. So its not a direct downward feeling at lock.. and its not pulling UP on the bed cap too much. Should be pretty sturdy.. as sturdy as it can get in something like this without heavy modification. Its only modified as far as drilling out that hole.

Not a race harness.. but better than it was.. at least so I feel. Not going to build a few more for crash testing.