Starter Question - Land Rovers Only

LowTech · 11-07-2006, 01:38 PM

Hi All,
I have a 73" Series III 88 with a 2.25 Petrol engine. Anyhow, my starter died. I unbolted the old one but couldn't visually figure out how to remove the wire -- and I didn't want to destroy the connector trying to figure it out. Every other starter I've ever replaces simply had a nut and lock washer -- not this one -- at least at first glance. Can some one talk me through it?

Thanks in advance,

Matt.

pickuprover · 11-07-2006, 02:47 PM

Mineis just a nut and lock washer, unless you have some weird set up, it should just be undo the washer and away you go....

WineryRover · 11-07-2006, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pickuprover

Mineis just a nut and lock washer, unless you have some weird set up, it should just be undo the washer and away you go....

yep, same with my '72. Nut and washer.

Can you take a picture of it?

LowTech · 11-08-2006, 04:43 AM

I'll take another good look at it tonight -- and a picture if I can't figure it out. In the meantime, here's a description... the connection has a rubber-ish "boot" (US definition) arond it and it almost feels like I could just pull it off. It isn't on tight -- as I expected. I can rotate the wire/cable clockwise and counter clockwise quite easily. If it wasn't for the symptoms, I would think that it was the loose wire alone causing my starter problems. But, the starter gear sounds like it's spinning, just not engaging with the fly wheel. Any insights on whether or not my assumption is correct?

TerryS · 11-08-2006, 06:17 AM

Your ability to describe what you 'think' you're seeing is excellent. Now you just have to work on trusting your judgement. It looks like a rubber boot, because that is what it is. Most have rotted off by now, so lots of people don't know that they actually put on over the connection.

Pull it back, and ..............VOILA............. There's the ( loose) nut and lockwasher.

You're also probably right if you think the starter is spinning but the bendix isn't engaging. Quite often, the rear main seal is leaking and the oil is getting 'flung' from the back of the flywheel, all over the inside of the bellhousing, including onto the starter shaft. Not a problem when the WX is warm, but once it turns cold, the oil is so thick, it won't allow the bendix to quickly fly out and engage.

This was exactly the case on my first Land Rover, but It started so well with the hand crank, I found it easier to handstart it, than contemplate laying on the frozen ground pulling the gearbox, flywheel, and rear main seal. Of coarse, once it warmed up, everything was hunky dory, so I put it off till the following winter, whereupon I reverted to my original thoughts, and I did this for seven years, until I finally sold the truck, to, an equally lazy guy, who also handcranked it for another five years.

pickuprover · 11-08-2006, 06:17 AM

the connection sometimes has a nut between the started and the wire, then another nut to tighten the wire to the first nut. Behind the first nut would be some sort of insulating material (since this is power coming in, and power coming out is basically the casing of the starter to the engine via ground strap/metal to metal casing.) The reason why you might be able to turn the wire both clockwise and counter clockwise is that the stud that the nuts go on sometimes winds loose. But if the starter is revolving, then you definately do not have a power issue... most likely a ceased bendix spring.... once youget it out, clean the startergear and the spring, oil it all and make sure it all moves freely....

TerryS · 11-08-2006, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pickuprover

once you get it out, clean the starter gear and the spring, oil it all and make sure it all moves freely....

No, Don't OIL it. The oil just gets stiff in cold WX, and attracts all the dust from the friction plate to make a nice, thick paste. Use powdered graphite (the stuff used to 'lubricate' lock tumblers), little tube of it from the hardware store goes a long way. Even the old green bible says not to oil the starter shaft.

pickuprover · 11-08-2006, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerryS

No, Don't OIL it. The oil just gets stiff in cold WX, and attracts all the dust from the friction plate to make a nice, thick paste. Use powdered graphite (the stuff used to 'lubricate' lock tumblers), little tube of it from the hardware store goes a long way. Even the old green bible says not to oil the starter shaft.

Thanks for correcting me Terry.... I oiled mine, never seemed to cause any problems, but I guess the graphite would be better....

TerryS · 11-08-2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pickuprover

Thanks for correcting me Terry.... I oiled mine, never seemed to cause any problems, but I guess the graphite would be better....

There are some pretty good dry lubricants out there too. Graphite is very effective as a dry lube, but don't ever shoot it into the Ign lock tumbler. It's conductive and has been known to cause shorts. One guy once reported that he shot some in and the starter immediately started cranking, and wouldn't stop.

pickuprover · 11-08-2006, 03:46 PM

I guess I always figure, that since the rear seal always seems to be leaking, or the front of the tranny... what is a little extra oil in the bellhousing...

LowTech · 11-09-2006, 06:39 AM

I pulled the old starter last night and replaced it with a new one. Yep, it was a "boot" -- but it was no longer pliable so it crumbled when I tried to pull it back -- no biggie, now it's like every other starter I've had. I examined the old starter before unpackaging the new one and found the problem. The tiny (why so tiny?) spring between the bendix and the housing was destroyed. Too bad such a small/cheap part had to sink a otherwise good starter. That said, I'm sure a starter shop could replace the spring. I just ran out of time.

Now comes the sad part -- getting it ready to sell. My plan was to get a cheap daily driver for the winter (my Rover's from So Cal and hasn't ever seen snow/salt) but can't pull it off. Soooo... my two options are to sell it or drive it througha Michigan winter. And, because I can't bear to destroy a nice clean rover with road salt, it looks like I'm selling.

So, if you know of anybody who's looking for a nice low-mileage (40K) Series III 88 (conveniently located in Michigan), please send 'em my way. It has all of the good stuff you'd expect from a low-mileage Cali Rover -- minus the negatives. I replaced the dry-rotted seat all of the way around. I had the dash pad redone (Looks brand new and original), new window and door seals, new BFGs -- and lots of other new parts. Price -- $9K. My cell's 248.229.6377 if you want more info. Pictures to come after the weekend.

Have a great day.

Matt.

11-07-2006, 01:38 PM	#1 (permalink)
LowTech 1973 Series III 88 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Rochester Hills, MI Posts: 30 Gallery: 0	Starter Question Hi All, I have a 73" Series III 88 with a 2.25 Petrol engine. Anyhow, my starter died. I unbolted the old one but couldn't visually figure out how to remove the wire -- and I didn't want to destroy the connector trying to figure it out. Every other starter I've ever replaces simply had a nut and lock washer -- not this one -- at least at first glance. Can some one talk me through it? Thanks in advance, Matt.

11-07-2006, 02:47 PM	#2 (permalink)
pickuprover Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,371 Gallery: 0	Mineis just a nut and lock washer, unless you have some weird set up, it should just be undo the washer and away you go.... __________________ Andrew Barr. 1972 Series III 109. "the Tin Turtle" "However, that was his ploy and I caved....totally caved... LOL!" Jellijo

11-08-2006, 06:17 AM	#6 (permalink)
pickuprover Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,371 Gallery: 0	the connection sometimes has a nut between the started and the wire, then another nut to tighten the wire to the first nut. Behind the first nut would be some sort of insulating material (since this is power coming in, and power coming out is basically the casing of the starter to the engine via ground strap/metal to metal casing.) The reason why you might be able to turn the wire both clockwise and counter clockwise is that the stud that the nuts go on sometimes winds loose. But if the starter is revolving, then you definately do not have a power issue... most likely a ceased bendix spring.... once youget it out, clean the startergear and the spring, oil it all and make sure it all moves freely.... __________________ Andrew Barr. 1972 Series III 109. "the Tin Turtle" "However, that was his ploy and I caved....totally caved... LOL!" Jellijo

11-08-2006, 03:46 PM	#10 (permalink)
pickuprover Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,371 Gallery: 0	I guess I always figure, that since the rear seal always seems to be leaking, or the front of the tranny... what is a little extra oil in the bellhousing... __________________ Andrew Barr. 1972 Series III 109. "the Tin Turtle" "However, that was his ploy and I caved....totally caved... LOL!" Jellijo

11-09-2006, 06:39 AM	#11 (permalink)
LowTech 1973 Series III 88 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Rochester Hills, MI Posts: 30 Gallery: 0	Solved... Thanks! I pulled the old starter last night and replaced it with a new one. Yep, it was a "boot" -- but it was no longer pliable so it crumbled when I tried to pull it back -- no biggie, now it's like every other starter I've had. I examined the old starter before unpackaging the new one and found the problem. The tiny (why so tiny?) spring between the bendix and the housing was destroyed. Too bad such a small/cheap part had to sink a otherwise good starter. That said, I'm sure a starter shop could replace the spring. I just ran out of time. Now comes the sad part -- getting it ready to sell. My plan was to get a cheap daily driver for the winter (my Rover's from So Cal and hasn't ever seen snow/salt) but can't pull it off. Soooo... my two options are to sell it or drive it througha Michigan winter. And, because I can't bear to destroy a nice clean rover with road salt, it looks like I'm selling. So, if you know of anybody who's looking for a nice low-mileage (40K) Series III 88 (conveniently located in Michigan), please send 'em my way. It has all of the good stuff you'd expect from a low-mileage Cali Rover -- minus the negatives. I replaced the dry-rotted seat all of the way around. I had the dash pad redone (Looks brand new and original), new window and door seals, new BFGs -- and lots of other new parts. Price -- $9K. My cell's 248.229.6377 if you want more info. Pictures to come after the weekend. Have a great day. Matt.

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11-08-2006, 04:43 AM	#4 (permalink)
LowTech 1973 Series III 88 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Rochester Hills, MI Posts: 30 Gallery: 0	I'll take another good look at it tonight -- and a picture if I can't figure it out. In the meantime, here's a description... the connection has a rubber-ish "boot" (US definition) arond it and it almost feels like I could just pull it off. It isn't on tight -- as I expected. I can rotate the wire/cable clockwise and counter clockwise quite easily. If it wasn't for the symptoms, I would think that it was the loose wire alone causing my starter problems. But, the starter gear sounds like it's spinning, just not engaging with the fly wheel. Any insights on whether or not my assumption is correct?

11-08-2006, 06:17 AM	#5 (permalink)
TerryS Moderator Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Bloomfield, CT If I died today, I lived there all my life. Posts: 2,234 Gallery: 0	Your ability to describe what you 'think' you're seeing is excellent. Now you just have to work on trusting your judgement. It looks like a rubber boot, because that is what it is. Most have rotted off by now, so lots of people don't know that they actually put on over the connection. Pull it back, and ..............VOILA............. There's the ( loose) nut and lockwasher. You're also probably right if you think the starter is spinning but the bendix isn't engaging. Quite often, the rear main seal is leaking and the oil is getting 'flung' from the back of the flywheel, all over the inside of the bellhousing, including onto the starter shaft. Not a problem when the WX is warm, but once it turns cold, the oil is so thick, it won't allow the bendix to quickly fly out and engage. This was exactly the case on my first Land Rover, but It started so well with the hand crank, I found it easier to handstart it, than contemplate laying on the frozen ground pulling the gearbox, flywheel, and rear main seal. Of coarse, once it warmed up, everything was hunky dory, so I put it off till the following winter, whereupon I reverted to my original thoughts, and I did this for seven years, until I finally sold the truck, to, an equally lazy guy, who also handcranked it for another five years.

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