What would I be getting myself into

[garrett]

I dont buy domestic at all, it is just my most recent experience. I have a 05 Audi S4 that has been in the shop 6 times now, going back for its 7th today in less than 4 months. I compare it to my 77 Mercedes 300D that never gives me problems, except for the rising cost of diesel and the utter lack of acceleration and speed.

[greenmeanie]

In simple engineering terms terms modern cars are more complex and therefore have greater potential to go wrong although individual part reliability helps off set this. If you want the whole deal we can go all Six Sigma on you.

The big difference is that the Land Rover series was designed as a working vehicle before the advent of OBD systems etc. The principle was that you do a lot of preventative maintenance regardless of whether it's needed or not and she'll keep putting along and as long as the VERY basic fundementals are taken care of then you won't be stranded. If you do not keep up with the maintenance schedule then it will fail.

Modern vehicles are designed to be the opposite. They are designed to have a life of about 10 years or 150-200K miles so they are rather difficult to compare to a 25 year plus old farmer's truck. (At an IMechE lecture given by Jaguar on the XK8 the chief designer admitted the engine would not last more than 100K miles. As it uses coated aluminium cylinder bores there is no potential for R&R on it either.)

They are considerably more complex and use on board diagnostics and controls to operate to finer margins in many areas which results in less maintenance, less breakdowns and generally smoother performance. The technology did advance in the 60 odd years since the first series truck popped into existence. The big difference is that when they do go wrong all that added compexity means that you are pretty much dead in the water and looking at bigger repair costs. It's just a different philosophy enbabled by modern technology.

I can sympathise with the S4. My wife has a 2001 allroad. After reading up on other owner's experience with Audi I bought the diagnostic software and cable, the manuals and now wrench on it myself. I'm still ahead in the game over having bough a warranty. It's a great car but very complex.

Warrantees are funny things and are often not even worth the paper they are written on. IIRC Jeep had a disclaimer that off roading the vehicle voided the warranty. Unfortunately if you take any vehicle today I will guarrantee that I can dig up a wealth of known faults in the form of tsbs, recalls etc. Yes even the beloved Toyota has issues. Look at the recall for chassis rot on the Tacoma for instance.

As for materials - Hmm I prefer my steel dash to all that modern plastic vinyl crap they put in modern cars. At least the steel won't bubble, crack and peel in the Arizona sun.

Cheers
Gregor

[zed]

yea.. audi/vw/bmw.. Those are horrible examples. Driving the industry by putting to market technology and materials that are ahead of their time and not tested well.

Great for the warranty length.. then pretty much screech to a halt.

Jaguar.. well... they have a proven track record.

The land rover engine is well over built for its power output.
That and the aluminum body probably what keep it going.

Complex is what you're used to.
I think they're simple. I can't plug in a computer and have the rover tell me how its broken. That makes it a bit harder from my perspective. In a way.

Steel dash if you like it.. I think i'd rather In my III. They are durable and potentially attractive.
But.. vinyl isn't used in dashes anymore. The combination of UV glass and modern materials will make them last well longer than anyone will be interested in these bland vehicles they produce now.

There is no facet of a car that isn't greatly improved. The only thing you could argue is that you don't want to pay for safety or emissions. But.. our democratic government says otherwise.

As for jeep warranties. off roading doesn't void current warranties. I couldn't speak to old ones.. Break it with mods.. and well.. hope you have a nice dealer.

Most companies often have warranties that claim many things that are illegal. Like ford. .. Pretty much pop the hood and its voided... except in all 50 states of the united states that's an illegal statement. But it still says you have to have ford do the maintenance. Thats where their little statement about applicable by law comes in. Warranties are pretty much mandated by law. Dealers just set the length and parts covered.

Warranties are good as your dealer and/or your knowledge of the law and ability to make them yield to it.

[greenmeanie]

Originally Posted by zed

yea.. audi/vw/bmw.. Those are horrible examples. Driving the industry by putting to market technology and materials that are ahead of their time and not tested well.

Great for the warranty length.. then pretty much screech to a halt.

That is an interesting statement that I'd like you to qualify. Can you name a single material or technology that they brought to the market first within the last 10-15 years? The allroad is complex but I have not had any issues beyond normal wear and tear.

As for testing I think you'll find they meet at least the DOT minimum or they would not be importable. The hot weather testing is done round here.
All modern vehicles fail and have TSBs against them. The big difference is how the dealer network addresses it. For instance there is the recall of all 95-01 Tacomas due to chronic frame rot. Audi would laugh in your face but Toyota buys them back at 1.5KBB and crushes em.

The point I was making is that modern cars are more complex. All the extra complexity provides the improvements you talk of. The difference in philosophy is that LR requires you to do preventative maintenance while the modern car will let you run until the last minute before telling you of an issue. Then on comes the idiot light. If you accept this difference and get on top of the maintenance both vehicles will be reliable.

The aluminium body on a LR has very little to do with it's longevity as the main structural members are steel and rot just as fast as everything else out there. The difference is that they are of simple bolted and riveted construction and there is a ready supply of replacement parts which make them simple for the competent machanic to keep running.

Gregor

[garrett]

I would agree about the complexity. With my old W123 Mercedes I feel completely confident when working on it because of the simplicity of the engineering and the straight forwardness of all the parts. The Audi on the other hand, though based on the same principles of engineering is far more intimidating with all the engine covers and electronic controls. Though all the maintenance and work is basically the same I still have yet to trust myself working on the Audi, because I am scared that I might break something. The newer generations of cars also feel cheaper so the propensity to break something I feel is far greater.

I have a far greater respect for older cars because they were just that cars, used to successfully get from point A to point B without all the bells and whistles that 1. a person would rarely use and 2. even though they have all these special features I cannot understand 90% of them.

I think that I am going to make an offer on the Series IIA that I have found. Would $2500 for one with all the ailments that I previously described be too much?

[greenmeanie]

Hmmm,

That’s something that is impossible to say without pictures. Post some up and we’ll give you a realistic answer.
Things that add value to an old series are:
1. Sound chassis, bulkhead and radiator panel. The first two are the basic structure of the vehicle. If they are rotten you are straight into a major rebuild – not a cheap thing. It’s a false economy to pay less for a rotten truck only to have to fix it yourself.

2. A straight body is good but most panels can be replaced pretty easily. The one to look at is the tub. Look at it behind the wheels and check for bondo. They can be repaired but it is not simple. When looking at the bulkhead pull out any floor mats and inspect the foot wells, the door posts and the top outer corners.

3. For the most part ‘upgrades’ do not add value to the basic vehicle. A few exceptions are a tropical roof, Kodiak heater and an overdrive.

Anything mechanical can be rebuilt and you have to remember this is a 44 year old truck so most stuff will be worn or at least in need of overhaul. Expect to replace the entire brakes and hydraulics for safety’s sake so issues there are acceptable but should be factored into the price. If you cannot run the engine or check the gearbox walk away or REALLY low ball him. Axles are not too expensive to repair.

The usual rules apply here. Above all don’t let your heart rule your mind. Go and look it over really thoroughly and don’t buy it on the first visit. Look at your budget and buy the best truck for the money. Cheap broken trucks are more expensive in the long run compared to better kept examples.

Me, I know what I'mlooking at with these trucks but I can't say I've got any screaming deals on them either. Make your choices, pay your money and never regret.

Cheers
Gregor

[garrett]

Here are some pics of the truck, anyone let me know if they can see any red flags right off the bat.

Thanks everyone again for your help with this.