I m officialy throwing in the towel on my '92 RRC. I know I have tried this before, but there was little interest so I am trying again with a lower price. The deal is this... If I can't get someone interested at a price that is at least fair for all the goodies this truck brings to the table I will just part it out, so if you are looking for a part, feel free to contact me and perhaps the requests will add up to me just going ahead and doing that.
I bought this truck with the intent to fix it up and use it for my honeymoon trip to Glacier National Park, and have been hunting am undiagnosed engine problem for five months now. In an effort to determine why the engine computer sends the truck into Limp Home Mode, we have replaced the:
Alternator
Fuel Pump
Fuel Sender
Coil
Plugs and Wires
and finally the Injectors - I choose to go with after-market ford motor sport injectors because my pocketbook has run out of help.
So, why should anyone pay $3000 for a Rangie that doesn't run right? Because the engine that is in it has 15K Miles on it. DAP says we need to open it up and pull the after-market (Crower) Cam Shaft and replace the Injectors that I put in. I'm broke and planning a wedding.
In addition to the above new items the truck also has
Classic RRC Brush Bar - NEW
RRC Bumper - NEW No End Caps
Steering Guard
T - Case Guard
Rear Brush Bar
Diff Guards
1 " OME Lift
Custom Shock Towers
It also has a practically brand new Rovers North Custom Stainless Full Length Roof Rack - with tire mount and rear facing Hella Work Lamp - that I am willing to sell in a separate deal. Retail on that is nearly $2000
I have a matching parts truck, which I am going to try to get going if no one is interested. It needs a new alternator and air in the tires and the brake switch that allows you to shift out of park into drive once you depress the brake. I will consider all offers on that truck.
The deal here is I am bailing out and trying to recoup some of the thousands of dollars I invested into this truck. My loss could be your gain, if you are willing to take it the last final step, or even better, if you know how to take an engine apart. I had intended to teach myself how to take care of this truck, but never even got the chance with it going into the shop about a month after I bought it. 5 Months later and $3000 lighter (about $6000 if we count the add ons and initial investment) I can take it no longer. Make a reasonable offer. Ask for parts from either truck and I will consider it. I am even open to selling the engine on its own. I made a big mistake here and need to raise some money for some other kind of honeymoon plan, so I am willing to consider any kind of plan anyone comes up with.
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"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
I do have a spare ecu in the garage if you want to try the swap to see if it solves the problem and gets the honeymoon back on track...
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"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
Al at DAP put a new garage ECU in it and it changed nothing. I replaced the injectors, which is what we thought the problem was, and it didn't help - in fact it made the problem worse. We determained that at least two injectors were not working, so I bought new ones. I did not go with the recomended Land Rover injectors though, I went with ford motor sport injectors that matched the ones that were in there. This made the problem worse. I feel like someone has to know how to fix this problem as the truck was running perfectly when I bought it and then this problem reared its ugly head and I have been chasing it ever since. (Ever since, by the way, is for five months. That being said, I have not had very much money to invest so the work has been slow going.) I think I were to say, "take the engine apart andfigure it out." The problem would be taken care of quickly, but I can't afford such a thing. This is a great deal for a person who can ajust the cam shaft, or replace it with a new one.
I have a spare 3.9 that ran good if you'd like I can run a compression check on it and if you want to help pull it we can swap it into your truck. I can probably get a work crew together. We could work out a trade for the motor for some parts...
For some reason I'm still not a fan of dap......
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"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
The truck is running lean and when pushed hard the computer sends the truck into limp home mode. So, this is the point where I have to be very clear and say that I know very little about mechanics. My plan was to learn with this truck, but I never even got to that point and am so over my head that I have to bail out.
I say keep it... you will definitely learn from it. What codes is it throwing? There's not too many things that will send it into limp mode. The cam & injectors should not be a problem.
I'm guessing you meant shouldn't be a problem lol.
I would be curious as to fuel pressure, Maf readings and o2 readings.
Hell I didn't even know the RRC had a limp mode lol maybe mines been in it for 6 years that would explain why it's so gutless lol
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"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
I have a spare maf at the house. I have 2 new o2 sensors as well I haven't had time to install. We need to find someone a little smarter than me in the area to do a ride along to his place and see what's up. Maybe we can succeed where the amazing dap has failed....
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"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
Wow... you guys are amazing. The only error code I saw was 25... but I have no idea what any of that means.
I don't know about the O2or MAF - in fact I don't know what the MAF is (Mass Air Flow? But what that means I don't know.)
The problem now is that I had DAP put in the new injectors that I bought - ford motor sport yellow tops - and now the thing hardly runs at all. Before, I could drive it as long as I did not go over 45 or so... but now it over heats real fast and has no guts at all. I need to trailer it out of there.
If you all are willing to help me damn... I'll um.. well, I have an entire parts truck to trade, plus I am a AAA Four Diamond Chef, and a Culinary Instructor at UMass Amherst.... I could cater some dinner parties etc... which would knock your socks off and those of your guests. I know I need to learn how to fix this thing, but before I even got a chance to begin learning it broke in a way that no one seems to be able to fix.
What were the original symptoms and what are the current symptoms
Define gets hot real fast.
Is there oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil
Is the EFI/Check Engine Light on? Also does it light up when you turn on the key lol.
We know the injectors were changed and a ecu swapped in. Were the injectors and ecu new or used.
If used were they known good parts?
As soon as I can remember the procedure for pulling codes from the ecu or find my manual I'll give you that procedure, to see what the car has to say for itself.
I'm not really worried about payment. It's more about paying it forward.
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"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
x2 on where in VT are you? If you guys get some type of trailer I would be willing to tow it to most places in the new england area for you with my old ford f-250 (not very fast going, but she'll pull anything anywhere). Maybe we can get it a place near ArmyRover and if needed I can give a hand doing some of the work. Cost of tow would be lunch thats it. One condition is I can't do anything for the next two weeks when my shoulder will be all healed up.
That's the spirit! We'll get "Cheeks" rolling in no time.
I'd suggest starting a new thread in the RR Classic tech section so it gets more attention. Start with Army's questions and any other info you can get from DAP on what they may have tested.
I was in your boat when I got mine about 4 years ago and since then I have learned a lot. Even rebuilt the top of the motor into a hot rod 3.5
So if I can do it so can you.
I don't have a place to store it while we work on it unfortunately, but head over to Southern New Hampshire Land Rovers and start a thread as well I have already posted up about you throwing in the towel. We'll see if the other guys have a place to put it and we'll have a club tech weekend and get that beast going again.
If it's something as simple as a misfire coupled with overheating hmmmm...... I begining to think this might have something to do with a plugged cat.
Here's my reasoning:
1. fine at low speeds
2. when pushed loses power, runs rough goes into limp mode
3. starts overheating quick
4. random misfire codes
Also head gaskets ring a bell but I think even dap could diagnose that one....
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"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
Let's just start by saying again that you all rock!
Where in VT are you and the truck? : Brattleboro
What were the original symptoms and what are the current symptoms:
Originialy the truck ran fine - this is important because it has been suggested that it has the wrong injectors or the wrong cam shaft, which is after market, in it, but it did work when I bought it. Then it began to develop a bucking that felt like you would expect if a truck was running out of gas. Finally it just died and would not start. The first shop it went to said the alternator had died and that was the problem. I mentioned the fact that it was bucking before it died, and they said, "well these trucks have computers in them which if they are not getting enough electricity then they would cause the fuel pump to not pump and you would get that bucking." To be clear that was a non-rover shop. So, they put in the new alternator and I drove it away. It died in less then 24 hours with the same problems from before. I had it towed to DAP and they found that the new alternator was making a VERY loud noise like it had a bad bearing and I got the original shop to get me a new alternator. Then, DAP put that one in and found the fuel pump was not pumping strong, which would account for a bucking problem so we replaced the fuel pump. After that I came to pick it up and drove away, but did not get far before the problem showed back up while under heavy load on the highway going up a hill.
I brought it back to DAP and they found that it was leaking gas from a hole in the tank, which they fixed.. they also fixed the fuel sender at that point, and replaced the plugs and wires and coil. This did not change the problem.
At this point Al at DAP put in about 20 hours of his own time swapping known good parts from his truck or from test stock into the engine and driving it home and around for two weeks trying to get a bead on this.
Now, let me be real clear about something, because I sense these is weird vibe about DAP here... Al did all that work for free and knocked off a huge part of my bill ($600) in trade for lasagna for the crew lunch one day. So just so everyone knows they did all this work almost all for free because they want to know what is wrong just as much as I do.
SO anyway.... we then came to the thought that it might need a valve job, but after some work they figured the valves were working fine. Then it was decided two injectors were not firing and I needed new injectors because the ones in there are not Land Rover injectors but Bosh after market with not the right flow rate - specifically they push 18.25 lb/hr and the engine needs 24 lb/hr. So because I am broke as hell, I bought ford motor sport injectors from a guy in California that swore up and down that they are the ones he sells to everyone with 3.9 Land Rover engines. So, when they got to DAP Steve checked the part # against the Bosh injectors and found they have the same flow rate 18.25 lb/hr, and advised me against putting them in. I went against his advice because I can't afford $1000 LR injectors and they did it. Also, logic dictates that if the 18.25 lb/hr injectors worked before, and two are known to be not working, then the NEW ones should work. instead, it made things worse. Now the truck runs SUPER lean - I don't really know what this means... too much O2, against fuel? They say you can smell fresh fuel coming out the exhaust. And they say as soon as you turn it on it heads for overheating. To boot I need to pay $250 in labor for having them put the new injectors in. I mean that is fair, it was my decision, but boy does that burn when all you want is to go wheeling.
Define gets hot real fast. I have not experienced this myself, but DAP says with the new injectors it starts to overheat almost as soon as you turn the truck on.
Is there oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil - I do not know.
Is the EFI/Check Engine Light on? Also does it light up when you turn on the key lol. - It was off when I picked the truck up last and as soon as it bucked - after replacing the coil, plugs and wires and fuel sender - the check engine light came on. It was on before the problem started as well, way back when I first bought it.
We know the injectors were changed and a ecu swapped in. Were the injectors and ecu new or used. - Injectors are new Ford Motorsport Yellow tops, Al swapped in a test ECU at the shop that they keep to check with.
"As soon as I can remember the procedure for pulling codes from the ecu or find my manual I'll give you that procedure, to see what the car has to say for itself."
I can probably get DAP to just tell me what codes it is showing.
"I'm not really worried about payment. It's more about paying it forward."
I just talked to Steve at DAP and he said that I have left out one very large piece of information: when they tested the engine they found it to have VERY low compression. He said a plugged cat would not account for that issue.
That being said, I can get a trailer. Anything you guys want to do I am up for because I would be an idiot to pass on such generosity.
Sorry for the slow response I have been reading and researching....
Ford Yellow tops are the wrong injectors they rate at 19lbs/hour 202.0 cc/min original equip rates at 23.67 lbs/hr and min of 195cc/min. On the per min flow they are close but the original equip number is the minimum flow and the ford motorsport doesn't say which it is so it's possible that they could cause a problem. The ford motorsport injectors you probably would want are FMS-M-9593-A302 they are 24lbs and 255cc/min.
To low of a flow rate could cause a lean condition. But the information your giving muddies the water so to speak. Dap is saying it's running super lean, but they also say they can smell raw fuel dumping out the exhaust. These statements contradict themselves. Lean does not produce the raw fuel smell rich does. So the question is then which is it? I would be curious as to what the spark plug looks like when pulled...
There are quite a few other things that concern me in the reply but I won't get into that.
So now on top of it the parts guy says you have low compression? Did he give you the results of the compression test? Had they mentioned this before?
Honestly get the truck out of there and lets set up a time that I can drag smarter than me people up there and some spares to get this thing going. I have a nagging suspicion that it's something simple and just needs some attention to detail to get it going.
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"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
Ford Yellow tops are the wrong injectors they rate at 19lbs/hour 202.0 cc/min original equip rates at 23.67 lbs/hr and min of 195cc/min. On the per min flow they are close but the original equip number is the minimum flow and the ford motorsport doesn't say which it is so it's possible that they could cause a problem. The ford motorsport injectors you probably would want are FMS-M-9593-A302 they are 24lbs and 255cc/min.
Everything I have researched says that the Yellowtops (C302s) are the proper replacements and are well with in spec. There was a good thread over on DWEB about these, but it appears to be down at the moment. There was talk about the higher flow rate not being good for the engine IIRC.
I was looking for that thread as well. I remembered it was about these very injectors. I just couldn't remember what the official decision was in regards to thier use. I was going off of specs alone.
If I remember it was PT that said they were good to go. If he says there fine I would be inclined to take that as gospel.
Is it me Kevin or is some of the info just not adding up?
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"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
Gentlemen I started a new thread on this so please put any new info in there and let's get it solved. So they can have a great time in a Rover in Glacier National Park.
Although we want to see pics of the trip
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"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
1992 Rrc $3000
