Another Oil Question

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by Elemental

The fact is, 20-50 is a bad choice. Period Paragraph.

Its just simply not going to last as long as it could. Period.

I know what I am talking about.

What oil depends on what driving conditions. Period. I would destroy my engine if I ran the 5W and 10W oils.
Another person that reckons they're an expert. A legend in your own mind.

[p76rangie]

This is the brand of oil I run. It is very good oil, but not available in the US as far as I am aware. But you will note that they recommend 20w60 for 3.5 V8s, 15w/60 for the 3.9's and 10w50 for the 4.0's and 4.6's. I run the 15w60 only because of its high temp viscosity of 60W, otherwise I would run a 20w50 if I had nothing else available. But most places I can get a high temp viscosity of 50W or above without going above 15W on the cold temp rating. I am not too concerned about the cold viscosity as I do not live in a cold climate. But if you guys live in an area that snows, etc, the bottom viscosity becomes more important. But I run my Rangie in 40C temperatures and often at high revs under extreme loads. But as stated previously, you pick the oil that best suits what YOU do and don't listen to people who claim to be experts.

Penrite Oil

[daway]

i use castrol 20w50, spring through fall and use castrol 5w30 up here in the MN winters. i also add a bottle of lucas oil treatment in my old 93 rrc engine (specs are in the rrc manual) w/ a k&n filter. around the end of sept. or the start of oct. i switch to 5w30 due to the weather dropping at night (30-40's). we get some warm weather in oct (a couple of days of 70's-80's) but the winters up here can come fast and the temp drops...one day it's in the 80's in oct the next day 40's....got to lov it up here. this wkend it was in the 30's (1st time in wks) and on monday dropped down to -20 and it's going to drop even more by wed!!!!

[Elemental]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

What oil depends on what driving conditions. Period. I would destroy my engine if I ran the 5W and 10W oils.
Another person that reckons they're an expert. A legend in your own mind.

You live down under. I know the oils are different there then here in the States. I dont know enough to tell you the difference, but I know its different.

Based on what I read, I may not be a expert, but I know a little more about oil then you...
If you can handle setting aside your ego, and are interested in learning...Read these posts....I hope it isnt over your head.

OiL
OiL

Being that you base your decisions on brand and weight....You can see that you didnt even know what you didnt know.


Again, pour water in your crankcase for all I care. I put the info out there, Ignore it if you want.

[Elemental]

Originally Posted by gordo

Funny Ive ran nothing but 20/50 in my 89 RRC for 10 yrs and it now has 300k on it. My wifes D1 has 156K and same oil, my driver 92 RRC has 174K and same oil. I use Kendall usually but once and awhile I will run Mobil one (15/50)> Also ive never had any of these motors apart. The key is changing the oil regularly and running good filters. Yeah it might not work in some cases but down here in FL I wouldnt even think of running any 10 weight anything oil. Its just too damn thin for the heat down here. Im betting not one of your "documented" breakdowns involved a Rover V8. Gordo.

Why is documented in quotes? Do you know what I do for a living?

Also, I would bet that if you did take your engine apart, your cam lobes woudl be under spec. It shouldnt be because...The oil is to protect the metal parts..... If the metal parts are worn, then it isn't protecting them, is it?

[p76rangie]

Elemental, In your case a little knowledge has proved to be dangerous. You attempt to overcomplicate things to impress others. You need to keep it simple.
Basically, the rating of the oil is determine by its shear factor. However, there are other factors to take into account though. Firstly, if the oil can't get through the engine when it is cold, there is going to be no protection. Therefore the climate and the cold weight of the oil is important. Secondly, Shear factors are determined by the weight of the oil and the pressure that it is under. Therefore engines with higher oil pressures can run lighter oil and still maintain the shear protection. Thirdly, oil thins as it gets hot. If you going to run the oil temp high due to climate and the type of work you do, the high temp rating becomes important. Finally, the age of the motor is important. As stated, the oil pressure is an important factor. As the motor wears the gaps where the oil can escape (bearings, etc) become larger. Therefore thinner oil will escape more easily and will not maintain pressure through the whole system and will not circulate fully. Therefore, you should start using thicker oil as it gets older. So you might get away with 10w oil for the first 100,000km, then you might want to consider 15w oil up to 200,000km and then 20W oil above 200,000km.

Finally, get a reputable brand that use quality components in the oil. There is really not much point is using full synthetic in a Rover V8, but you should not use the cheap and nasty stuff either.

[Elemental]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

Elemental, In your case a little knowledge has proved to be dangerous. You attempt to overcomplicate things to impress others. You need to keep it simple.

I'm not trying to impress anyone, I'm trying to educate the willing. You aren't willing to be educated, so just ignore it.

Basically, the rating of the oil is determine by its shear factor. However, there are other factors to take into account though. Firstly, if the oil can't get through the engine when it is cold, there is going to be no protection.

Yes and no. Think oil will hang on longer then thin...But, how big do you think these gaps are for Petes sake? However....A 200 degree engine is a 200 degree engine regardless of ambiant temp, no?

Therefore the climate and the cold weight of the oil is important. Secondly, Shear factors are determined by the weight of the oil and the pressure that it is under. Therefore engines with higher oil pressures can run lighter oil and still maintain the shear protection.

You need 10 pounds per 1,000 RPM...Any more is a waste, and sometimes harmful. Picture getting hit with a garden hose and a fire hose. The garden hose is a nice cool stream on a warm day..... a fire hose is used for riot control. Pressure isnt as important as quanity.

Thirdly, oil thins as it gets hot. If you going to run the oil temp high due to climate and the type of work you do, the high temp rating becomes important.

If your engine is running hotter then 210F, shut it off! It doesnt matter how cold it is outside, or hot. If your running that hot, get a new radiator.

Finally, the age of the motor is important. As stated, the oil pressure is an important factor. As the motor wears the gaps where the oil can escape (bearings, etc) become larger. Therefore thinner oil will escape more easily and will not maintain pressure through the whole system and will not circulate fully.

Again, 10 psi per 1,000 is all thats needed. Second, at 200-210 degrees F, the oil is thicker, no? Again,How big of a gap are we talking for petes sake. You do know that your bearings prevent metal on metal wear from cenfrifical force..The metal rides on a coat of spinning oil.... .ANd, even when the oil leaves a bearing, is it not replaced with more oil, you know, from the pump?

Therefore, you should start using thicker oil as it gets older. So you might get away with 10w oil for the first 100,000km, then you might want to consider 15w oil up to 200,000km and then 20W oil above 200,000km.

If the oil is doing its job, there will be almost no wear. So, at 200,000 it should have the same thickness bearing as 100,000, No? If not, your oil isnt preventing wear, is it? If your bearing gap is increasing over 100,200,300 thousand miles, what is the point of the oil? If there is not metal on metal contact, as a proper oil will do....Whats to wear?

Finally, get a reputable brand that use quality components in the oil. There is really not much point is using full synthetic in a Rover V8, but you should not use the cheap and nasty stuff either.

Brand means nothing. Fucking Castrol "Syntec" isnt even sythetic.

Again, be happy in your little nugget of knowledge, and ignore what someone else knows because you cant put your ego aside to listen to someone you dont like.

Nothing like letting Testosterone get in the way of common sense.

[Elemental]

Originally Posted by OkieRover

That's the oil my wife's Taurus calls for.
I think I put 10w30 in it last time.
She only drives it around town. It's a 2002 and just now has 48,000 miles.

5W-20 is, in a sense, different than other viscosities. The difference is that the primary OEM manufacturers that specify the use of 5W-20 (Ford & Honda) established a very stringent proprietary rating for the 5W-20 oil used in their cars.

Ford and Honda together dominateed the market for 5W-20. So, the oil industry responded. The just about any 5W-20 is significantly better quality base stock than what can be easily found in budget 5W-30, 10W-30 and especially 10W-40.

The ASTM test sequences that are required by API for the other oil are run "double time" for any 5W-20 that meets Ford and Honda requirements. This is at least as big a deal as it sounds! The sequences that other oils endure for 60, 64 or 80 hours, are run for 120, 128 and 160 hours on the
Ford/Honda approved 5W-20.

Group I base stock is still common in 10W-40 oil. It still can be and is used to make 10W-30 and 5W-30. But I don't think it is possible to meet the Ford/Honda specification with a group I base stock oil. From everything I've read and heard, anything meeting the Ford/Honda 5W-20 spec uses at least a group II base stock and most also blend in some even better oil(group II+, III, III+, IV) with that to meet the stringent Ford/Honda requirements. It may be possible to meet the spec with a group II base stock, no other blending oil and enough additive.


Any 5W-20 that meets Fords WSS-M2C153-H
http://www.ilma.org/resources/ford_2004_my.pdf
spec is a product of the kind of high quality that most people would associate with the term "blended synthetic" but the term itself is not very meaningful. It is the WSS-M2C153-H rating that is meaningful. API SL rating does NOT indicate that a 5W-20
meets the Ford WSS-M2C153-H standard so it is advisable to
verify that any 5W-20 does meet this spec.

5-20 costs little more then 10-30, and its a better oil.

[p76rangie]

Elemental, You just don't want to listen. When I am talking about a cold motor you are talking about a hot motor. To suggest a motor does not wear and an engine at 200,000km will have the same tolerances as new is just plain stupid. Another stupid comment is to suggest that oil is thicker at higher temps than lower temps along with the suggestion that the oil temp will be the same under load as it is cruising. The oil temp does not necessarily work with water temp and therefore how good the radiator is is irrelivant. I can have the oil temp maxing out (even with the twin oil coolers I have fitted) while the water temp is quite cool.

You just continue to prove that you are full of facts and have no idea of how to apply them.

[Crysyn]

I just made some popcorn, this is starting to get good.

[Elemental]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

Elemental, You just don't want to listen. When I am talking about a cold motor you are talking about a hot motor.

To suggest a motor does not wear and an engine at 200,000km will have the same tolerances as new is just plain stupid.

Not stupid at all. I have personally taken apart engines with 150-200,000+ miles that had bearings not even into the copper, and still within tolerance for new bearings. You have not, I guess. But, it is perfectly possible. And why not?If there is no metal to metal contact, how does the bearing wear?

Heres a Subaru with 202k on the clock. Rings in spec, bearings JUST showing copper,still has the hatchmarks on the clyder walls....Do you think your wear will be similar on your Rover at 200,000 Miles? Bet not.
Subaru teardown

Why do you think that is?


If you are changing your oil regularly, and your bearings/cam are still wearing below tolerance....What more do you need? Your oil is wrong.

Another stupid comment is to suggest that oil is thicker at higher temps than lower temps along with the suggestion that the oil temp will be the same under load as it is cruising.

Um, 5-30 oil.... Acts as a 5 weight oil at 0c and a 30w oil at 100c, at least in its simplest form. Why would a 10-30 be better then a 15-40 at very high temps? Explain to me why you think this so we can get you up to speed once and for all.

The oil temp does not necessarily work with water temp and therefore how good the radiator is is irrelivant. I can have the oil temp maxing out (even with the twin oil coolers I have fitted) while the water temp is quite cool.

What temp is "Maxed out" and why are you continuing to use a aluminum engine with oil that hot?

You just continue to prove that you are full of facts and have no idea of how to apply them.

Um, yeah. You dont know any facts more then the kid at Autozone told you. In the shade of a tree is no where to get a automotive education.

The fact that you are using the "right" oil and still having measureable wear in your engines, tells me you are not using the right oil.

Shamefully, your ego just will not accept it.... I dont care, its not my truck.

But, dont come off like you know more about this subject then I do. It's clear you do not.

Edit - I'm going to bed. But, I will give you this challenge! use your 20-50 oil like you normally do, and use a 15-40, like I advise for the same time.

Have them BOTH analized by a lab (A airport could help with this, as oil has to be analized at every annual inspection) and post the results.

You will find, I would bet that the oil viscosity had broken down, and your oil has more metal in it.

If you give it a HONEST run, and I am wrong....I will eat my words in front of everyone.

Try it. Prove me wrong!

[p76rangie]

Originally Posted by Elemental

Not stupid at all. I have personally taken apart engines with 150-200,000+ miles that had bearings not even into the copper, and still within tolerance for new bearings. You have not, I guess. But, it is perfectly possible. And why not?If there is no metal to metal contact, how does the bearing wear?

Heres a Subaru with 202k on the clock. Rings in spec, bearings JUST showing copper,still has the hatchmarks on the clyder walls....Do you think your wear will be similar on your Rover at 200,000 Miles? Bet not.
Subaru teardown

Why do you think that is?

You continue to show your ignorance. The tolerances specified for a motor tell you that it is within serviceable limits, NOT that it hasn't worn. Do you think that one day its not worn and the next day it is. You can't be serious.

I have also seen many Rover V8s with the hone marks still visible after 200,000kms. You can often rebuild them without the need to re-bore.

Bearings showing copper are worn well past tolerances. They are stuffed!

Originally Posted by Elemental

If you are changing your oil regularly, and your bearings/cam are still wearing below tolerance....What more do you need? Your oil is wrong.

Find me an oil that I can use that will mean that my motor will last forever and I will use it. Again, you can't be serious with such comments.

Originally Posted by Elemental

Um, 5-30 oil.... Acts as a 5 weight oil at 0c and a 30w oil at 100c, at least in its simplest form. Why would a 10-30 be better then a 15-40 at very high temps? Explain to me why you think this so we can get you up to speed once and for all.

If you talking like oil for like oil, that is, say a Mobil non-synth 10-30 and a 15-40, it means that at the higher temp the 40 will be thicker and has a higher shear factor.

Originally Posted by Elemental

What temp is "Maxed out" and why are you continuing to use a aluminum engine with oil that hot?

Because I use an oil that of a higher standard that what was available at the time the car was manufactured. The oil I use can take higher temperatures. So I can still drive it with the oil temp gauge up near the "Max" point. Again, I stated that the water temp is fine. It is just oil under stress heats up.

Originally Posted by Elemental

The fact that you are using the "right" oil and still having measureable wear in your engines, tells me you are not using the right oil.

Where have I said that my motor is worn out. When I replaced my last motor, all the bearings were in near perfect condition. But you seem to have this fixation that a motor will not wear out if you use the right oil. It just shows that you live on a different planet.

Originally Posted by Elemental

Edit - I'm going to bed. But, I will give you this challenge! use your 20-50 oil like you normally do, and use a 15-40, like I advise for the same time.

You continue to show that you just start typing and don't read. I clearly stated that I use a 15w/60 oil. Can you actually get it through your head that oils have developed well past oils with a very narrow viscosity range.

Originally Posted by Elemental

Edit Try it. Prove me wrong!

I don't need to. Your comments are so out there, eg a motor never wearing out, that everyone knows your wrong.

[daway]

Originally Posted by p76rangie

Finally, get a reputable brand that use quality components in the oil. There is really not much point is using full synthetic in a Rover V8, but you should not use the cheap and nasty stuff either.

every true.
everyone should remember that the older V8 rover engines (buick) run really rich.

i am not starting anything, just wanted to point that out.

best thing to do is go by the LR rrc manual and what temps are in your state or country.
MN gets very cold in the winter and that is why i use 5W-30 and the summers get up in the 100's so i use 20W-50.

[gordo]

Originally Posted by Elemental

Why is documented in quotes? Do you know what I do for a living?

Also, I would bet that if you did take your engine apart, your cam lobes woudl be under spec. It shouldnt be because...The oil is to protect the metal parts..... If the metal parts are worn, then it isn't protecting them, is it?

I imagine you are a mechanic. I know I dont claim to be but you will never convince me to run a thin oil. Your logic makes absolutely no sense as you are comparing fords/hondas to rovers. To me if my trail truck has turned 300k and has never been apart, I am doing something right. Also no doubt I expect there to be wear in an engine with 150-175K, you would have to be an idiot if you didnt. Oh yeah and seeing cooper means that it needs new bearings regardless of what your stupid spec sheets say, the next level is hard steel and craters will form which burn into the journal! Oil does more than just slip between the bearings my friend. It also acts as a "shock absorber" between the bearings/journal and you gotta admit a thicker oil flowing at a faster rate is going to be harder to squeeze out of the bearing gap than your 10 weight oil. (of course this all depends on the outside temperature, manufacture recommendations etc) Im willing to listen to your arguments but clearly you are not willing to hear anyone elses point of view. I wont bore you with details but here is another interesting tid bit to read I found online some time ago. Seem pretty logical to me.

Multi viscosity oils are one of the great improvements in oils, but they should be chosen wisely. Always use a multi grade with the narrowest span of viscosity that is appropriate for the temperatures you are going to encounter. In the winter base your decision on the lowest temperature you will encounter, in the summer, the highest temperature you expect. The polymers can shear and burn forming deposits that can cause ring sticking and other problems. 10W-40 and 5W-30 require a lot of polymers(synthetics excluded) to achieve that range. This has caused problems in diesel engines, but fewer polymers are better for all engines. The wide viscosity range oils, in general, are more prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown due to the high polymer content. It is the oil that lubricates, not the additives. Oils that can do their job with the fewest additives are the best.

Very few manufacturers recommend 10W-40 any more, and some threaten to void warranties if it is used. It was not included in this article for that reason. 20W-50 is the same 30 point spread, but because it starts with a heavier base it requires less viscosity index improvers (polymers) to do the job. AMSOIL can formulate their 10W-30 and 15W-40 with no viscosity index improvers but uses some in the 10W-40 and 5W-30. Other multigrade synthetics may not use VI improvers either. The full literature available from the oil company should include this information. Follow your manufacturer's recommendations as to which weights are appropriate for your vehicle.

Viscosity is a measure of the "flowability" of an oil. More specifically, it is the property of an oil to develop and maintain a certain amount of sheering stress dependent on flow and then to offer continued resistance to flow. Thicker oils generally have a higher viscosity, and thinner oils a lower viscosity. This is the most important property for an engine. An oil with too low a viscosity can shear and loose film strength at high temperatures. An oil with too high a viscosity may not pump to the proper parts at low temperatures and the film may tear at high rpm.



Viscosity Index is an empirical number indicating the rate of change in viscosity of an oil within a given temperature range. Higher numbers indicate a low change, lower numbers indicate a relatively large change. The higher the number the better. This is one major property of an oil that keeps your bearings happy. These numbers can only be compared within a viscosity range It is not an indication of how well the oil resists thermal breakdown.

[ArmyRover]

I think he was only recommending the thin oil for specific vehicles that call for the 5-20 certain fords and hondas.

If I read it all correctly I think he is more of a advocate for 15w-40 for the rover engines.

not trying to stir the pot Gordo but I'm sure I gave it a little slosh