Fluctuating Coolant - Land Rovers Only

Greg M · 03-20-2006, 07:52 PM

Hello All,

I have an 87 w/ a 3.5 that can't seem to make up its mind on what coolant level it wants to be at. For example, a couple of days ago it was a little low so I topped it off (low in the radiator, not the overflow tank, and while it was warmed up). The next day it overflowed from the overflow tank a little after driving it so I figured i just overfilled it. I checked it yesterday, again in the radiator, and could see the first three rows. But this time i left it alone. This morning, i guess it decides it still doesn't like that, and overflows coolant again from the overflow tank. I let it cool off after I drove it home this afternon and the level in the radiator is to the top.

So what gives? I have researched this in an effort to figure it out for myself and all I can come up with is perhaps there is an air lock or bubble in the system. Could this be caused from a leaking head gasket that is allowing pressure to build in the system and then releasing or what? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

RageRover · 03-20-2006, 07:58 PM

Might have an airpocket in the block, maybe? Might wanna try "burping" the system. Thermostat might also play a role in this as well. Other than that....

gordo · 03-20-2006, 09:10 PM

Is it overheating? What made you check the radiator instead of the tank? Not sure about the 3.5 but you can bleed the 3.9 on the heater pipes next to the intake. Make sure you turn the heater on full blast. Gordo

p76rangie · 03-20-2006, 09:11 PM

They tend to have a small header tank and therefore it is not uncommon to empty it if the motor gets warm. If there was coolant in the header tank at the time you noticed air in the radiator, it could be just that the water in the header tank had made its way into the radiator.

Ian

RageRover · 03-20-2006, 09:43 PM

Funny, Ian is this common in RRC motors, like the 3.5, 3.9, and the 4.2?

p76rangie · 03-21-2006, 02:46 AM

Range rover use to put small metal header tanks on the rangies and they have a habit of emptying them out if the motor gets hot and then later cools down. The later switched to a plastic tank that that connect to the lower radiator hose. The lower hose looks a bit like a "T" with the main hose running between the radiator and water pump, and a smaller hose coming off the main hose and going to the header tank. So if you have one of the plastic ones, they tend to be OK until they explode, but the metal one are too small.

Ian

Greg M · 03-21-2006, 01:39 PM

Thanks everyone I appreciate your input. I think my problem is probably a blown head gasket. It has all the tell-tale signs. There is a consistent flow of bubbles in the expansion tank, white smoke on start up, and now a gradual loss of coolant (it is down to the fifth row now after only 35 miles). Is it possible that the system is being over pressurized by the leak causing it to overflow? I do have one more question, from what i've read a blown headgasket is not too common on the 3.5. Of couse mine does have plenty of miles so nothing is impossible. However the bubbles are most certainly worse when the engine is cold. They seem to taper off after the engine is warm and the smoke stops after a few miles. Headgasket expanding when hot and not leaking as bad?

Greg M · 03-22-2006, 01:11 PM

Well, decided to do a compression test and i am almost wishing i hadn't. It has confirmed my worst fears.

1. 123
3. 90
5. 90
7. 123

Okay, probably a blown gasket between 3 and 5.

2. 30
4. 100
6. 100
8. 123

No, didn't leave off a numeral on the number 2 cylinder. I re-connected and retested 3 times. I hate to see what it looks like when i pull the head . . .

p76rangie · 03-22-2006, 03:10 PM

Now all you have to do is put some oil in each of the cyclinders and do the test again. If the compression improves, it is the rings rather than anything else.

Ian

p76rangie · 03-22-2006, 03:21 PM

How did you do your compression test. Was the motor at running temperature, did you have all the plugs out or did you only remove one at a time. Did it go straight up to the pressure you recorded in 2 to 3 turnovers of the motor, or did it take a lot longer and slowly worked its way up to the pressure. If you think that there is a leak between two cyclinders, do a test with the other cyclinders spark plug in and one test with it out. Assuming that you did the test properly, I think you have bigger issues than a head gasket. It could be the cam, valves, rings, cracked pistons, etc. But I do not believe you will solve your problems by simply changing the head gasket, unless the new gasket remains attached to another motor.

Ian

Greg M · 03-22-2006, 05:29 PM

No, i didn't bother with the wet test after i got the 30 on number two. Too bummed out. I will though, before I tear into it just to know what to expect. I plan on doing a leakdown test as well so i can isolate the valves. I will be pulling the heads regardless though, and will be rebuilding them while i have them off. Believe it or not, the engine runs remarkably well. No starting problems, no idle problems, no strange noises, and doesn't appear to be too down on power. I probably wouldn't have even noticed if it weren't for the coolant. However the truck is 20 years old and high mileage so what can i expect?

p76rangie · 03-22-2006, 06:57 PM

Range Rover motors have a reputation for chewing out cams. This is quite often the problem with low or irregular compression. If you think it could be a headgasket affecting a water gallery, just put a product like Chemiweld into the cooling system and it should fix it.

Ian

Greg M · 03-24-2006, 04:09 PM

Okay, pulled the head which wasn't all that hard. A PITA and time consuming no doubt, but not as bad as I thought it was going to be.

And the verdict is - cracked exhaust valve!

I will have to post a picture of how bad the valve train is coked with oil. I've only owned the truck since December so i didn't do it - I'm just the dumbass that bought it

Seriously, words don't do it justice, you have to see it for yourself. I am completely amazed with the rover v8. How it ever stood up under these circumstances speaks to toughness of the engine.

Now, a word of caution to everyone out there that even thinks they may have a head gasket problem. Don't put off fixing it. The heat produced by combustion gas is hot enough to turn the finest oils to sludge and powder very quickly, not to mention burning a valve, or holing a piston. Don't risk it, fix it!

RageRover · 03-26-2006, 11:47 PM

Hey Greg, did that side of the motor where you pulled the head with the cracked exhaust valve, did it tick at all before you pulled it?

Greg M · 03-28-2006, 06:16 PM

Yes. I figured it was an exhaust tick, but now that i think about it, it was probably the valve. Why, is yours ticking?

03-20-2006, 07:52 PM	#1 (permalink)
Greg M Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Boise ID Posts: 219 Gallery: 0	Fluctuating Coolant Hello All, I have an 87 w/ a 3.5 that can't seem to make up its mind on what coolant level it wants to be at. For example, a couple of days ago it was a little low so I topped it off (low in the radiator, not the overflow tank, and while it was warmed up). The next day it overflowed from the overflow tank a little after driving it so I figured i just overfilled it. I checked it yesterday, again in the radiator, and could see the first three rows. But this time i left it alone. This morning, i guess it decides it still doesn't like that, and overflows coolant again from the overflow tank. I let it cool off after I drove it home this afternon and the level in the radiator is to the top. So what gives? I have researched this in an effort to figure it out for myself and all I can come up with is perhaps there is an air lock or bubble in the system. Could this be caused from a leaking head gasket that is allowing pressure to build in the system and then releasing or what? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks! __________________ Greg M 1987 RRC Rovers haven't made it to the far reaches of the Earth worrying about warning lights.

03-20-2006, 07:58 PM	#2 (permalink)
RageRover Crazy about Rovers and more... Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Westland, MI Posts: 2,889 Gallery: 0	Might have an airpocket in the block, maybe? Might wanna try "burping" the system. Thermostat might also play a role in this as well. Other than that.... __________________ Pat Albaugh, Midwest Moderator "Diffage" -the point at which the truck's differential makes contact with the ground. http://www.cardomain.com/id/RageRover42Visit my RRC and others here!(updated as of September 15, 2006) 1995 RRC LWB -LT265/75R16 Pathfinder All Terrains -RTE 2" Lift Springs -Pro Comp ES9000 Shocks (from DAP Enterprises) -KMC Front Diff Guard -4 Desert Fox 55 watt Lighting -Radio Shack CB Radio (never know when signal fails on a cell phone) -2 Halogen Super Sport 100 watt forward lights -Custom slim style front bumper w/ integrated bull bar -Lowe's Special "Homemade" Snorkel -T-Case out of an 92' RRC

03-20-2006, 09:10 PM	#3 (permalink)
gordo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bradenton, FL Posts: 307 Gallery: 0	Is it overheating? What made you check the radiator instead of the tank? Not sure about the 3.5 but you can bleed the 3.9 on the heater pipes next to the intake. Make sure you turn the heater on full blast. Gordo __________________ Gordo www.floridalandroverclub.com 00 P38 4.6 blinging 92 stocker RRC 73 hybrid wheeler

03-20-2006, 09:43 PM	#5 (permalink)
RageRover Crazy about Rovers and more... Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Westland, MI Posts: 2,889 Gallery: 0	Funny, Ian is this common in RRC motors, like the 3.5, 3.9, and the 4.2? __________________ Pat Albaugh, Midwest Moderator "Diffage" -the point at which the truck's differential makes contact with the ground. http://www.cardomain.com/id/RageRover42Visit my RRC and others here!(updated as of September 15, 2006) 1995 RRC LWB -LT265/75R16 Pathfinder All Terrains -RTE 2" Lift Springs -Pro Comp ES9000 Shocks (from DAP Enterprises) -KMC Front Diff Guard -4 Desert Fox 55 watt Lighting -Radio Shack CB Radio (never know when signal fails on a cell phone) -2 Halogen Super Sport 100 watt forward lights -Custom slim style front bumper w/ integrated bull bar -Lowe's Special "Homemade" Snorkel -T-Case out of an 92' RRC

03-21-2006, 01:39 PM	#7 (permalink)
Greg M Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Boise ID Posts: 219 Gallery: 0	Thanks everyone I appreciate your input. I think my problem is probably a blown head gasket. It has all the tell-tale signs. There is a consistent flow of bubbles in the expansion tank, white smoke on start up, and now a gradual loss of coolant (it is down to the fifth row now after only 35 miles). Is it possible that the system is being over pressurized by the leak causing it to overflow? I do have one more question, from what i've read a blown headgasket is not too common on the 3.5. Of couse mine does have plenty of miles so nothing is impossible. However the bubbles are most certainly worse when the engine is cold. They seem to taper off after the engine is warm and the smoke stops after a few miles. Headgasket expanding when hot and not leaking as bad? __________________ Greg M 1987 RRC Rovers haven't made it to the far reaches of the Earth worrying about warning lights.

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03-20-2006, 09:11 PM	#4 (permalink)
p76rangie Ian Matthews Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 2,139 Gallery: 0	They tend to have a small header tank and therefore it is not uncommon to empty it if the motor gets warm. If there was coolant in the header tank at the time you noticed air in the radiator, it could be just that the water in the header tank had made its way into the radiator. Ian

03-21-2006, 02:46 AM	#6 (permalink)
p76rangie Ian Matthews Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 2,139 Gallery: 0	Range rover use to put small metal header tanks on the rangies and they have a habit of emptying them out if the motor gets hot and then later cools down. The later switched to a plastic tank that that connect to the lower radiator hose. The lower hose looks a bit like a "T" with the main hose running between the radiator and water pump, and a smaller hose coming off the main hose and going to the header tank. So if you have one of the plastic ones, they tend to be OK until they explode, but the metal one are too small. Ian

03-22-2006, 01:11 PM	#8 (permalink)
Greg M Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Boise ID Posts: 219 Gallery: 0	Well, decided to do a compression test and i am almost wishing i hadn't. It has confirmed my worst fears. 1. 123 3. 90 5. 90 7. 123 Okay, probably a blown gasket between 3 and 5. 2. 30 4. 100 6. 100 8. 123 No, didn't leave off a numeral on the number 2 cylinder. I re-connected and retested 3 times. I hate to see what it looks like when i pull the head . . . __________________ Greg M 1987 RRC Rovers haven't made it to the far reaches of the Earth worrying about warning lights.

03-22-2006, 03:10 PM	#9 (permalink)
p76rangie Ian Matthews Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 2,139 Gallery: 0	Now all you have to do is put some oil in each of the cyclinders and do the test again. If the compression improves, it is the rings rather than anything else. Ian

03-22-2006, 03:21 PM	#10 (permalink)
p76rangie Ian Matthews Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 2,139 Gallery: 0	How did you do your compression test. Was the motor at running temperature, did you have all the plugs out or did you only remove one at a time. Did it go straight up to the pressure you recorded in 2 to 3 turnovers of the motor, or did it take a lot longer and slowly worked its way up to the pressure. If you think that there is a leak between two cyclinders, do a test with the other cyclinders spark plug in and one test with it out. Assuming that you did the test properly, I think you have bigger issues than a head gasket. It could be the cam, valves, rings, cracked pistons, etc. But I do not believe you will solve your problems by simply changing the head gasket, unless the new gasket remains attached to another motor. Ian

03-22-2006, 05:29 PM	#11 (permalink)
Greg M Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Boise ID Posts: 219 Gallery: 0	No, i didn't bother with the wet test after i got the 30 on number two. Too bummed out. I will though, before I tear into it just to know what to expect. I plan on doing a leakdown test as well so i can isolate the valves. I will be pulling the heads regardless though, and will be rebuilding them while i have them off. Believe it or not, the engine runs remarkably well. No starting problems, no idle problems, no strange noises, and doesn't appear to be too down on power. I probably wouldn't have even noticed if it weren't for the coolant. However the truck is 20 years old and high mileage so what can i expect? __________________ Greg M 1987 RRC Rovers haven't made it to the far reaches of the Earth worrying about warning lights.

03-22-2006, 06:57 PM	#12 (permalink)
p76rangie Ian Matthews Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 2,139 Gallery: 0	Range Rover motors have a reputation for chewing out cams. This is quite often the problem with low or irregular compression. If you think it could be a headgasket affecting a water gallery, just put a product like Chemiweld into the cooling system and it should fix it. Ian

03-24-2006, 04:09 PM	#13 (permalink)
Greg M Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Boise ID Posts: 219 Gallery: 0	Okay, pulled the head which wasn't all that hard. A PITA and time consuming no doubt, but not as bad as I thought it was going to be. And the verdict is - cracked exhaust valve! I will have to post a picture of how bad the valve train is coked with oil. I've only owned the truck since December so i didn't do it - I'm just the dumbass that bought it Seriously, words don't do it justice, you have to see it for yourself. I am completely amazed with the rover v8. How it ever stood up under these circumstances speaks to toughness of the engine. Now, a word of caution to everyone out there that even thinks they may have a head gasket problem. Don't put off fixing it. The heat produced by combustion gas is hot enough to turn the finest oils to sludge and powder very quickly, not to mention burning a valve, or holing a piston. Don't risk it, fix it! __________________ Greg M 1987 RRC Rovers haven't made it to the far reaches of the Earth worrying about warning lights.

03-26-2006, 11:47 PM	#14 (permalink)
RageRover Crazy about Rovers and more... Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Westland, MI Posts: 2,889 Gallery: 0	Hey Greg, did that side of the motor where you pulled the head with the cracked exhaust valve, did it tick at all before you pulled it? __________________ Pat Albaugh, Midwest Moderator "Diffage" -the point at which the truck's differential makes contact with the ground. http://www.cardomain.com/id/RageRover42Visit my RRC and others here!(updated as of September 15, 2006) 1995 RRC LWB -LT265/75R16 Pathfinder All Terrains -RTE 2" Lift Springs -Pro Comp ES9000 Shocks (from DAP Enterprises) -KMC Front Diff Guard -4 Desert Fox 55 watt Lighting -Radio Shack CB Radio (never know when signal fails on a cell phone) -2 Halogen Super Sport 100 watt forward lights -Custom slim style front bumper w/ integrated bull bar -Lowe's Special "Homemade" Snorkel -T-Case out of an 92' RRC

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03-28-2006, 06:16 PM	#15 (permalink)
Greg M Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Boise ID Posts: 219 Gallery: 0	Yes. I figured it was an exhaust tick, but now that i think about it, it was probably the valve. Why, is yours ticking? __________________ Greg M 1987 RRC Rovers haven't made it to the far reaches of the Earth worrying about warning lights.

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