OiL

[glenncof]

1991 Range Rover - 174,000 in northern California Castrol 20/50
Add 1 qt. after 1500 miles and change at 3500 (when it gets to lower mark).

Use WIX 51459 filter which are double sized (clear frame but need strap wrench to loosen.) This engine runs really dirty relative to my others. I'm amazed by the weight each time.

I have studied the synthetic oils for awhile but they never made sense to me (until now on a Chevy Tahoe) due to cost. The RR only gets used about 7K miles per year and synthetics are recommended changing at least once per year. Since GTX averages $1.50 didn't make sense to go with Castrol Syntec at $3.99 (discount prices). Six month drain interval is comfortable.

===
That said I have just completed my first switch to synthetic:

1997 Chevy Tahoe 5.7l - 117,000. It has been changed at 3,000 miles all it's life, engine never opened. 10W30 Castrol. Chevy specs W30 as max. Zero oil consumption after 3,000. Down 1/3 quart after additional 1,000. Annual mileage about 17,000 per year.

It is wife's truck and is a "soccer mom kiddy hauler". It is very difficult to pry it loose from her so extending drain interval is attractive. Also she does lots of short trips so the 5w30 synth improves drivability. (I used some regular Castrol 5W30, hard to find cheap but read the extra chemical to get the range may not be so good. Synth has long molecule chains making it batter at handling range.) I use the cheap Fram filter, 2 for $5 on sale.

I just completed FIRST 5,500 miles on Castrol 5W30 Syntec and it was down 2/3 quart at the end. The first 1/3 happened quickly, I believe, in first 2000 miles (was worried as I expected the synth consumption might go up).

My goal is to get to 6000 mile drain interval, about three times per year. I believe I can get there, I'm just heading off on a trip and wanted it changed.

The oil capacity is only FIVE Quarts so I won't add any oil during the interval. Now I will need to spend more, x2, on quality filters like WIX, Purolator (Proline) which is ok since I'm changing filter half as often. So my net cost is the $5 more for Syntec.

To me the true measure of oil maintenance is no deterioration, i.e. no increase in oil consumption over time. If it starts going up I'll switch back to dino.

See http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ for more than you want to know.

[MysteryTheatre]

i recently read an interesting little report on various oils chemical make-up.
what i gathered from article was that phosporous is the main element crucial to valve train lubrication. it seems the api( american petroleum institute) requires less phosporous in the oil for an oil to be listed as a fuel economy oil. the report showed mobil 1 to have exceedingly higher levels of phosporous than any other brand and this is why it is not listed as a fuel saving oil, anyway many oils are low: like 170 or so ppm phosphorous, while mobil is at 1700ppm. i recently switched from my old favorite (castrol) to mobil. price is around the same , mobil is clearer on the pour ,other than that i'm in the dark on oil.

[Elemental]

ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphates) does not prevent wear! It manages wear that the proper engine oil can usually prevent.

It is only emissions related in that the phosporous destroys the oxygen sensor and catalytic converter.

The camshaft wear problem (Huge in Rover Engines) is rooted in the fact
that very few people take the time to understand that a 0W-30 can be thicker and provide better protection than a 10W-40. They simply refuse to educate themselves about the reality of lubrication and instead place all their failt in brand loyalty and meaningless terms like "diesel oil", "synthetic oil" and "racing oil". Not one of them ever bothered to identify the legal definition of "racing oil", "diesel oil" or "synthetic oil". They all end up using low
shear products and then blaming the camshaft failure on the EPA and how they caused a lack of ZDDP!

http://www.ilma.org/resources/ilsac_finalstd011404.pdf

Here is a breifing on Oil Specs. Namly GF-4. ILSAC GF-4 has three components. Engine protection, fuel efficiency and emissions system protection.

The engine protection component only duplicates API SM which fails to meet the minimum requirement of a whole bunch of cars. It falls far far short of the engine protection standards of most proprietary and ACEA ratings (but products labeled ACEA A1 protection actually fail ACEA A1). API SM and ILSAC GF-4 are upgrades in engine protection compared to the older API SL and ILSAC GF-3. Sludge control is one of the areas of improvement but
sludge remains a very significant issue especially in new engine designs with increased combustion chamber acid formation. This includes a significant number of American and Japanese cars. It also is not adequate for the shear
forces in most European cars.

The fuel efficiency standard duplicates the API Energy Conserving standard. It falls short of the fuel efficiency standards of some ACEA ratings, especially during "Soccer Mom" driving conditions.

The Emission system protection standard restricts the sulfated ash, phosphorous and sufur (SAPS) levels. The allowable level is higher for 10W-X0 than for 5W-X0 and 0W-X0 viscosities. The lower the SAPS level, the longer the catalyst and oxygen sensors last. SAPS related contamination is the #1 cause of catalyst failure during warranty. Some ACEA ratings have tighter SAPS limits than ILSAC. Previous ILSAC (GF-1/2/3) and other ratings already
restricted SAPS, zinc, chlorine, etc. ILSAC GF-4 is nothing
more than a continution of that trend.

Rumors have been spread about the failure ILSAC GF-4 and API SM to provide adequate engine protection for certain engines including 1960s era Engines, Like Rovers V8. Some of the ruors are true, others not.

Aftermarket and OEM oil supplements are used and mis-used like crazy. Most include ZPPD. Many include zinc and/or chlorine. Most contain compounds that are not legal to include in a quart of oil but are legal to sell separately.

Many engines (old and new) require much better engine protection than any API or ILSAC rating indicates. Substituting a 10W-40, 15W-40, 20W-50 or even a 10W-30 for the OEM recomended 5W-30 or 5W-20 is NOT a good idea. There is no such thing as an ILSAC approved 10W-40, 15W-40 or
20W-50. Even a 10W-30 will increase the SAPS level and may result in a cheaper base stock. Also, keep in mind also the problem with using the thicker oils, is, weak ring tension does not scrape it off the cylinder walls very good. It is slower to start doing it's lubrication duties on start up.

The high temperature high shear protection required by most newer European cars, some newer American & Japanese cars and some older American and Japanese cars is best met by selection of the OEM product or a proper oil based on the proprietary and/or ACEA ratings, or the product data sheet.
Typical API & ILSAC approval is not enough.

[57loboy]

Elemental - that said, (and it's all good info - thanks for the link), what would you recommend/use for a high mileage Rover engine if it was yours?

[Elemental]

I used Rotella, and woudl advise just about everyone too use it. But let me at least tell you why.The HD Diels 15W-40 products have a High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) rating that is similar to the ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 and C3 ratings. Plus, the ZDDP has been reduced making it safe for Cats and O2 sensor. Some guys think being a diesel 15W-40 oil is why the cams last longer,becuase it had hgiher ZDDP freaked when it was reduced,but the real difference is the HTHS and similar requirements.

SAE xx rates oil viscosity at 100C/212F

SAE xxW rates oil viscosity at one temperature that is well
below zero but varies depending on the rating (IE: -35)

HTHS rates oil viscosity and shear at 150C/302F

All SAE 0W-30,5W-30,10W-30,0W-40,5W-40 and 10W-40 ratings have the exact same minimum HTHS requirements. (2.9 at 150C/302F) . So a 10W-40 is NOT necessarily any thicker at 150C than a 0W-30.

An SAE 0W-30 that is also ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 or C3 approved has a minimum HTHS requirement of 3.5 at 150C/302F

So an ACEA A3/B4 approved SAE 0W-30 is actually required to be much thicker at 150C/302F and provide far better HTHS shear protection than an SAE 10W-40 that is not ACEA A3/B4 approved is required to provide. YES, a 0W-30 can be thicker than a 10W-40!!!

SAE 15W-40 has special requirements that exceed the individual "15W" and "40". The include a minimum HTHS of 3.7 at 150C/302F.

Typical SAE 10W-40 and SAE 20W-50 products are discouraged by virtually EVERY OEM and they are not approved by any OEM for use in modern cars. So, many oil companies that make them use their cheapest base stocks in these products and the result is inferior protection when compared to other modern oil products. These 10W-40 and 20W-50 products do NOT share the ZDDP limits that the more common ILSAC approved 5W-30 and 5W-20 products have, but the absence of those strict ZDDP limits in 10W-40 and 20W-50 has not shown any real advantage in camshaft protection (or anything else).

The ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 or C3 ratings will insure that the oil provides good protection under HTHS conditions. You can find these ratings in the Castrol Syntec 0W-30, Mobil 1 0W-40, Valvoline Synpower 5W-40 and other similar products. These products will be thin enough to allow the flow
required to flush away abrasives and will still provide the required high temperature high sheer protection. I like Rotella. It fits.

You will NOT find that approval in Mobil 1 5W-30, Mobil 1 10W-30, Mobil 1 0W-30, Castrol Syntec 5W-30, Valvoline Synpower 5W-30 or other seemingly similar products. These are NOT the correct oil products for with flat tappet lifters, like the Land Rover V8

BRAND MEANS NOTHING!!!!!!!! If you turn the bottle over and it does not say that it is ACEA A3/B3 (or A3/B4, or C3) approved, then it does NOT meet that approval!

So, using Mobil 1 is NOT the answer, using Castrol Syntec is NOT the answer, and using Valvoline Synpower is NOT the answer. Only certain products within those lines (and others) meet the requirements.

Anything that has ANY of the following approvals will NOT meet the requirements you need to protect the 1960s Tech, flat tappet lifters engine that Land Rover Used:

ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5, C1, C2 GM 6094M, 4718M ILSAC GF-4

The choice is yours. I like Rotella.

[57loboy]

I've been using the Rotella 15-40 for some time on a variety of my cars without issue.
When I was building Turbo Regals/Grand Nationals, the Rotella protected the valves and lifters quite well. The 3.8 Buick V6s are descendants of the same V8s we have here with the same lifter and rocker shaft wear issues. Add in 15-25 pounds of turbo boost with all the inherent additional stresses on the engine, and you need to know you have an oil with good shear protection. I also used it in my old 6.5TD Suburban too with a noticeable improvement (reduction) in engine noise.

[Elemental]

Yep! The Buick V6 is a Flat cam... most engines now are Rollers, so the trend is goign that way.
Looks like great minds think alike.

[MysteryTheatre]

Elemental is the castrol tection x-tra 15 40 comparable to rotella? or do you feel one is definitely better? i have the castrol available to me but not the shell

[Elemental]

Its hard to tell on the PDS.http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp...ra15W40PDS.pdf

However 15W-40 is a special case has a minimum HTHS of 3.7. So, it should be fine.

[MysteryTheatre]

so what you are implying is higher levels of zddp are used to supplement lower grade base oils and molecules that have less shear resistance? so higher instead of indicating a better oil it in fact indicates an inferior product beefed up with supplemental ingredients so it will work marginally, Like Wonderbread... for example? thanks Elemental for the valuable input here i will use 15w40 in the old beast. i have in the past ran the castrol tection xtra and with good results. i wonder what Sinclair motor oil is like? i know there gasoline just RULES!!!i notice significant power enhancement and improved mpg's with the sinclair gasoline. but it is not available here.

[Elemental]

In a nutshell, yes. Most engine now use roller lifters, so it isnt so much of a issue. But, on flat tappet engines, like Rovers...You need the proper oil to make up for it.

15-40, the way I see it, is the best oil to use currently in Rover Pushrod V8s.

[01001010]

The title of the thread brough this to mind..lol...

YouTube - Oil?

[The Count]

Originally Posted by Elemental

In a nutshell, yes. Most engine now use roller lifters, so it isnt so much of a issue. But, on flat tappet engines, like Rovers...You need the proper oil to make up for it.

15-40, the way I see it, is the best oil to use currently in Rover Pushrod V8s.

Great write up on oils. Now I'm going to look at oils differently!

When I first got my Rover with 65,000 miles a friend of mine who distributed Neo Oil highly recommended I use the 0 weight synthetic oil. Well, I haven't been very diligent in changing my oil and have used it for most of the past 100,000 miles and the Rover still runs very strong.

I haven't seen much deterioration in performance or reliability and have not replaced the head gaskets nor camshaft. Is there any detrimental effects to go back to dino oils from using synthetic?

[Elemental]

There are a bunch of rumors and wives tales about switching to and from syn to dino. MOST often the failure isn't caused by switching the oil, but revealed by the different oil.

I have no reason to advise against switching from SYn to Dino, or vise virsa.

And, thanks for the kind words!

[sven]

Chris, whats your thought on Rotella 5w40 synthetic? Ive been using that for awhile and the only reason I use that over the 15w40 rotella was for the winter temps here in PA. Do you think the regular 15w40 would be "thin enough" for winter starts?