RRC in need of Help, elemental disco mike various other smart people
Ok to start off with this is cookingwithfat's rig. He has been getting his butt kicked by this gremlin for a 5 months. His for sale thread has tuned into a save my rover thread so I thought I would repost it in the tech section so we could save the Rover and the Honeymoon he and his fiancee had planned.
So let's put our heads together and figure it out. I'm willing to head up to him and help try and fix the old girl as he isn't mechanically inclined. Any others that are willing to help let me know and we'll plan a get together at his place for operation Rover Rescue... lol
Here are the major bits of info thus far....
I bought this truck with the intent to fix it up and use it for my honeymoon trip to Glacier National Park, and have been hunting am undiagnosed engine problem for five months now. In an effort to determine why the engine computer sends the truck into Limp Home Mode, we have replaced the:
Alternator
Fuel Pump
Fuel Sender
Coil
Plugs and Wires
and finally the Injectors - I choose to go with after-market ford motor sport injectors because my pocketbook has run out of help.
So, why should anyone pay $3000 for a Rangie that doesn't run right? Because the engine that is in it has 15K Miles on it. DAP says we need to open it up and pull the after-market (Crower) Cam Shaft and replace the Injectors that I put in.
Let's just start by saying again that you all rock!
Where in VT are you and the truck? : Brattleboro
What were the original symptoms and what are the current symptoms:
Originialy the truck ran fine - this is important because it has been suggested that it has the wrong injectors or the wrong cam shaft, which is after market, in it, but it did work when I bought it. Then it began to develop a bucking that felt like you would expect if a truck was running out of gas. Finally it just died and would not start. The first shop it went to said the alternator had died and that was the problem. I mentioned the fact that it was bucking before it died, and they said, "well these trucks have computers in them which if they are not getting enough electricity then they would cause the fuel pump to not pump and you would get that bucking." To be clear that was a non-rover shop. So, they put in the new alternator and I drove it away. It died in less then 24 hours with the same problems from before. I had it towed to DAP and they found that the new alternator was making a VERY loud noise like it had a bad bearing and I got the original shop to get me a new alternator. Then, DAP put that one in and found the fuel pump was not pumping strong, which would account for a bucking problem so we replaced the fuel pump. After that I came to pick it up and drove away, but did not get far before the problem showed back up while under heavy load on the highway going up a hill.
I brought it back to DAP and they found that it was leaking gas from a hole in the tank, which they fixed.. they also fixed the fuel sender at that point, and replaced the plugs and wires and coil. This did not change the problem.
At this point Al at DAP put in about 20 hours of his own time swapping known good parts from his truck or from test stock into the engine and driving it home and around for two weeks trying to get a bead on this.
Now, let me be real clear about something, because I sense these is weird vibe about DAP here... Al did all that work for free and knocked off a huge part of my bill ($600) in trade for lasagna for the crew lunch one day. So just so everyone knows they did all this work almost all for free because they want to know what is wrong just as much as I do.
SO anyway.... we then came to the thought that it might need a valve job, but after some work they figured the valves were working fine. Then it was decided two injectors were not firing and I needed new injectors because the ones in there are not Land Rover injectors but Bosh after market with not the right flow rate - specifically they push 18.25 lb/hr and the engine needs 24 lb/hr. So because I am broke as hell, I bought ford motor sport injectors from a guy in California that swore up and down that they are the ones he sells to everyone with 3.9 Land Rover engines. So, when they got to DAP Steve checked the part # against the Bosh injectors and found they have the same flow rate 18.25 lb/hr, and advised me against putting them in. I went against his advice because I can't afford $1000 LR injectors and they did it. Also, logic dictates that if the 18.25 lb/hr injectors worked before, and two are known to be not working, then the NEW ones should work. instead, it made things worse. Now the truck runs SUPER lean - I don't really know what this means... too much O2, against fuel? They say you can smell fresh fuel coming out the exhaust. And they say as soon as you turn it on it heads for overheating. To boot I need to pay $250 in labor for having them put the new injectors in. I mean that is fair, it was my decision, but boy does that burn when all you want is to go wheeling.
Define gets hot real fast. I have not experienced this myself, but DAP says with the new injectors it starts to overheat almost as soon as you turn the truck on.
Is there oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil - I do not know.
Is the EFI/Check Engine Light on? Also does it light up when you turn on the key lol. - It was off when I picked the truck up last and as soon as it bucked - after replacing the coil, plugs and wires and fuel sender - the check engine light came on. It was on before the problem started as well, way back when I first bought it.
We know the injectors were changed and a ecu swapped in. Were the injectors and ecu new or used. - Injectors are new Ford Motorsport Yellow tops, Al swapped in a test ECU at the shop that they keep to check with.
Any Codes?
I can probably get DAP to just tell me what codes it is showing.
"I'm not really worried about payment. It's more about paying it forward."
Which is super amazing.
I just talked to Steve at DAP and he said that I have left out one very large piece of information: when they tested the engine they found it to have VERY low compression. He said a plugged cat would not account for that issue.
That being said, I can get a trailer. Anything you guys want to do I am up for because I would be an idiot to pass on such generosity.
The parts that don't make sense to me are the super lean condition they are telling him that it has and at the same time the exhaust smelling of raw gas.
I'm thinking there is something simple that has been overlooked. It did have a code 25 showing for misfire.
Alright fellow RRC owners let's save this one. I admit I was one of the first parts vultures to swoop in (diff and steering guards) but the more I thought and asked questions it seems this one is easily saved.
__________________
"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
great minds think alike but I think the title change will help lol
I think you maybe getting called for that tow I think he has a trailer available.
__________________
"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
Army... you're right about somethings not adding up, but until he gets it into his own garage it's hard to guess at it. That being said, my guess is a faulty MAF and a clogged fuel filter.
If my Rover was street legal (expired registration & inspection soon to be fixed), I would be down to VT in a heart beat to lend a hand..... mainly cause I want to try the $600 lasagna!
who cares what ya drive lol I'll be heading up there in my saab. It's much cheaper on gas.
__________________
"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
Army if we can get a look at it and figure it out whats wrong I can give Paul Grant a call for parts. He isn't to far from me and I could pick up the parts from him to save on shipping costs.
I have some parts as well that I can donate/let go real real cheap also. I have a full set of injectors, ecu plus he has a parts truck as well we can piliage for parts
__________________
"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
Sorry to hear you're having so many problems. It sucks when you're all excited about a new rig and taking a trip only to have everything go to hell.
Anyway, to the problems at hand.
It sounds like you have either a fuel problem or an ignition problem or combo of both.
In a previous life I was a commercial pilot and I know that an overly lean fuel mixture can cause it to overheat very rapidly. One of the things you're taught is if the head temp is getting too hot, enrich the mixture as it has a cooling effect. I suppose its possible that if the injectors can't keep up, or something else is causing an overlean situation, it would cause the overheating.
Also, pre-ignition/detonation could do the same thing. I would assume that someone along the way has tested the timing and distributor. If your dist was bad it certainly could cause the bucking but not the overheating.
One last thing - in limp home mode, does it run better, the same, or worse?
__________________
Greg M
1987 RRC
Rovers haven't made it to the far reaches of the Earth worrying about warning lights.
here is a tid bit that SY added on Muddy Oval on the for sale thread of Cooking.
"FWIW- those parts replaced weren't replaced 'chasing' the problem- those parts were faulty. The engine runs lean and has low vacuum, although has proper fuel pressure. The ECU is functioning properly. It has an aftermarket cam and aftermarket injectors, neither of which are proper for the engine."
__________________
"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
__________________
"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
if his cats are plugged that would cause the raw gas smell and the low vaccum ....army when are you heading out there??? maybe ill jump in for the ride .....as for injectors the comp doesnt know what brand they are as long as the impedance is correct...then cam again comp doesnt know what cam is in there.... a bad maf would cause alot of random issues...as would corrision in the pin connectors or bad grounds....also i had an issue with the dist...first the pins in the connector made poor contact.. causeing all types of f'ed up problems... then found corrosion at the pick up under the yellow cap that says do not remove...these are super simple vehicles to figure out... just need to not over think it.....again if anybody is going to head down to his place when he gets it home let me know and ill go for the ride.....
Chris not planning on throwing parts at it brother. I am looking for ideas though. I tend to target fixate and I'm trying to get other lines of thought to avoid that. Most anything you guys come up with I have a spare for to test the theory.
Read through all of the above and ask questions of cookingwithfat and we'll get this solved. I want to see the Rover at the Glacier's
__________________
"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
I want to tell the SNHLR members Army and Great Divide that I am proud of the both of you who stepped up to help this guy out. I do remember him as a charter member of SNHLR. This is proof that Southern New Hampshire Land Rovers has good and caring men in the ranks.
__________________
Finally got me one of them Land Rovers Life Is Good
apbtpetey and greatdivide not this weekend but next weekend. Is the earliest I can do this Don your welcome to ride along matter of fact I would prefer ya did. I'll grab a tool kit I recommend you bring some of your high speed toys as well. I figure I can get a spare set of injectors pulled ecu distributer and maybe the y pipe off of the spare rover. Don't know that we'll need any of it but I'll grab spares that I have based on what we figure out on here.
__________________
"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
Army, i got my sling off next week, so i can meet you guys there next weekend. i am not available the weekend of the 17th though. Just send me a pm and i'll give you my cell number and i'll need directions as well.
is the rover at cookings house or does it have to get towed to someplace were we can take a look at it? if i dont need to tow it i'll drive up in something different then my pick-up.
what tools you need me to bring, a have a pretty good set of various tools so if there is something you dont have that we need let me know. i have a vac gauge if you dont. i also have a compression tester if we need it. i know he was told it has low compression, but i think we should check that out as well.
I just talked to Steve at DAP and he said that I have left out one very large piece of information: when they tested the engine they found it to have VERY low compression. He said a plugged cat would not account for that issue.
Having "VERY LOW COMPRESSION" would have nothing to do with injectors, MAF units, or ECUs.
If had been running lean over a period of time due to the injectors, could have piston damage. The cam may also be the issue leading to low compression, it could be wrong, worn, or have incorrect timing.
I think the low compression was a misunderstanding from a later statement from steve that it has low vaccum so I would thing that was a little confusion between the two of them.
__________________
"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
P76 he is not mechanically inclined at all that's where alot of this problem starts he has a shop working on it that has been unable to solve it. It is not yet at his house it's going to be brought from the shop to his home as soon as it can be arranged.
A vac gauge and compression tester will be going along. For the sake of diagnostics I'm willing to believe them that the vac is low. They say it needs a new set of injectors and a cam replaced. The cam only has 15k and ran fine for a few months before the problems set in. I think we can both agree if with the decline of ZDPP that a cam shouldn't fail in that time frame. But if you have ideas I would like to hear them
__________________
"Only two defining forces ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."
RRC in need of Help, elemental disco mike various other smart people
