RRC in need of Help, elemental disco mike various other smart people

[ArmyRover]

got off the phone with dave about 20 min ago and that is his game plan. He'll be double and triple checking the cooling system tomorrow.

Basically it ran like a champ until romping it going up a steep grade and then it suddenly overheated and went into limp mode ran perfectly up to that point.

[cookingwithfat]

So, I found an interesting thing when going back to work on the cooling system. I noticed that one of the wires was loose from the distributer. When I looked closer I found that a second one was more then likely not attached as well, and two more that were awfully loose.

[apbtpetey]

Originally Posted by cookingwithfat

So, I found an interesting thing when going back to work on the cooling system. I noticed that one of the wires was loose from the distributer. When I looked closer I found that a second one was more then likely not attached as well, and two more that were awfully loose.

this could be causing the code 25 that you have been getting. I would suggest replacing the wires with new ones as well, or at the very least check the current wires for any damage to them.

I read through the thread about this on muddyoval and they are still trying to say it is because it has the wrong injectors, which from my understanding is wrong information on their part. I wouldn't touch the injectors just yet. Get the wires put in correctly and test drive it. If it is still having issues proceed with more testing before throwing anymore parts into it.

[CliftonRover]

I had this problem on my rangie after I did the head gaskets. I just ran it, got it warm, then added coolant if possible, then romped on it to move the coolant around the engine, it took a couple of tries and bleeding using all the ports, but it is fine now. I would be careful about it getting so hot though, I am not sure my truck has limp home mode, but it doesn't sound good to be getting it to that point.

[ArmyRover]

Originally Posted by apbtpetey

this could be causing the code 25 that you have been getting. I would suggest replacing the wires with new ones as well, or at the very least check the current wires for any damage to them.

I read through the thread about this on muddyoval and they are still trying to say it is because it has the wrong injectors, which from my understanding is wrong information on their part. I wouldn't touch the injectors just yet. Get the wires put in correctly and test drive it. If it is still having issues proceed with more testing before throwing anymore parts into it.

The wires are brand new on the rover the cap wasn't so I'll venture a guess that the rotor wasn't either. So once he gets them put on all the way that could solve that code 25

It's funny how they are clinging to that low-no vac, injectors and cam like it's holy writ. I wonder if they have banned me yet lmao.

[cookingwithfat]

SO here is my latest exchange over at MO

OK, about vacuum.

Please work with me here as I am just learning all of this, but since the question of vacuum keeps coming up let me shed some light on what I have learned.

Vacuum is important because of the vacuum advance, which is tied directly to an increase in vacuum as RPMs increase. (If this is wrong, please explain why and ignore everything else I am about to write as it is directly tied to this concept.)

I have driven the truck in two situations where I have produced 4500 RPMs at 60 MPH. Both are the result of kicking the truck down, and in both cases the truck drops two gears not just one. So, I put my foot down on the gas and it drops a gear, then I push even harder and it drops another gear. I do not know if the pushing harder is actually helping to kick down further, as the pedal seems to be all the way down at this point, but it seems that it has an effect.

One on a flat stretch of highway which resulted in a smooth running rover that felt the way I think a well built British rust bucket should.

The second was on a very steep hill where in order for me to maintain speed I need to kick it down. It is in this situation where the truck very quickly heats up and goes into limp home mode.(Please know that prior to having to kick the truck down the temperature gauge indicates the truck is running perfectly.) Also, when it does go into limp home mode what I experience is a pronounced decrease in power with my foot to the floor. If I quickly remove my foot and then give it gas again I will get minor backfiring and bucking.

In both cases the speed and RPMs are the same. As it has been explained to me, and as I said above, vacuum is tied to RPMs and as such in these two examples the difference is load.

Will vacuum decrees under load?
Does the truck require more vacuum under heavy load, and if so, how is it produced if vacuum is tied to RPMs?

I have tried my experience in the name of science here folks. If there is something I have left out please ask.

To which I got the reply to switch out the injectors. Which I don't understand. I know I am not the most knowledgable on this subject, but if injectors are not causing a problem at 4500 RPMs at 60 MPH on highway then they are pushing the right amount of fuel. Steve points out that these are "orange" tops anf not "yellow" tops. I am confused by this though because the guy I ordered them from swore up and down they are the injector for the RRC and when they arived Steve said they were not right, so I called the guy back and he stood by his part, so I pulled the trigger and had them put in. Steve says tehy are under rated though, and I do wonder if I have the wrong Ford injector. But, if I do then they should not work ever, right?

Anyway, I replied to the post to swap injectors thus:

Kevin, I don't know that the injectors are a known problem. Let me put it this way. The truck when I purchased it had the same injectors in it as the new ones. Ford Motorsport Yellow tops. The truck as of right now runs perfectly with the exception of kicking down at 4500 RPMS at 60 MPH on a steep grade uphill. Now beyond the debate over whether the Ford injectors are a suitable replacement part how can swapping in old unknown injectors from a parts truck help me when I currently have brand new injectors in the engine? If my understanding of injectors is correct, they do one thing and one thing only: inject a specific amount of fuel each time they are told to do so. If these are the wrong injectors - or Ford injectors are an unacceptable alternative replacement part - would they not fail in other areas of performance, not just at 60 MPH @ 4500 RPMs?

To which steve replied

An injector that is rated for less flow will lean the engine- a lean engine goes damn hot under load. They are orange, not yellow BTW- according to Ford. They are rated lower flow than the original ones by 7lbs which is significant.

To which I put up two posts...

But as I posted above I have two ideal tests that result differently. Both produce high RPM situations, so if the injectors were at fault then I should have experienced over heating at 4500 RPMs at 60 MPH on the highway flat, just as I did at 4500 RPMs at 60 MPH on a steep incline. I know that I am new at this but logic dictates that going through the whole process of replacing the injectors again is not warranted at this point.

1. Injectors are tied to RPM - I did not know that before - and are constant, therefore the "wrong" injectors should produce faults when identical speed and RPM conditions are tested. This has not been the result of my testing.

2. Vacuum is tied to RPM as well - see statement 1.

Now, I went to bleed the cooling system again, just for good measure and noticed that one of the new wires was not actually connected to the distributor. Upon closer inspection I found another that very likely was detached as well. When I pushed them all into place I found two more that were particularly loose. This means at the very least the truck was running down one cylinder, and possibly as much as 4 cylinders were not working, or perhaps were working intermittently. So let me pose this question: could one cylinder not working cause over heating ONLY in situations where the truck is under heavy load while also pushing high RPMs? What about with two cylinders down? Three? Four?

I am searching for the answer but I am reluctant to return to the injector issue as I feel logic points away from that. No one has convinced me otherwise. While it would be nice to have genuine Land Rover injectors to simply say that I should revisit that issue because they are not genuine is not logical. If there is something about the way the truck is running that points to injectors then that I am interested in, but as you have described injectors - and from what I have read - I should experience the same problem in both of my test situations.

and then finaly...

Either things get sorted out soon or my honeymoon is off and my fiancee and I have to make alternate plans. (For those of you who are not aware, that is not an analogy. We really are planning on taking the rover on our honeymoon.) I am going to romp hard on the thing because if it can't make it up route 9 to Marlboro Vermont it certainly can not make it through the Rockies, and if it can't do that then it is a worthless piece of crap.

When I bought it worked. Ergo, the injectors are fine, the cam shaft is fine etc... and what I don't understand is the logic of this. I mean .. oh to hell with it, I have wasted enough of everyone's time. I'll either figure this thing out or off to the damn junk yard with the dumb piece of crap. Five months with no answers from anyone other than more fishing expeditions and a lack of money to do real work means this is a dead end. I'll keep tinkering with her until I break her, but I think we are all tired of this thread.

I just can't keep talking about injectors and cams when the truck worked when I bought it. I am trying to be scientific about this as it is the only way that I can address things since I have so little experience.

[ArmyRover]

here is a interesting thread on your injectors Dave.

Who is using Summit injectors? - DiscoWeb Message Boards

That's why I'm not to worried about those injectors...

[apbtpetey]

Dave,

Please whatever you do don't mess with the injectors just yet. You don't need to waste the time and money. Same advise for the cam.

You said one/a few wires were off/loose, if that is the case they more then likely are giving you the code 25 which is the code for Ignition Misfire. Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to come to the conclusion that those loose spark plug wires more then likely are causing the code. Take it one step at a time and start with the basic stuff. Even before replacing the cap/rotor try running with the plugs all on nice and tight. If that doesn't work and you want to change out the cap/rotor with the one Bill has go for it and see if it helps, but before you start wasting valuable time and money on more parts start the testing process and this will narrow it down to what is wrong with your rover.

I can promise you this that by not having one or more than one spark plug wire attached correctly your rover will run like crap. It's common sense and for people to sit there and tell you that it is the injectors and/or cam after you hearing about the coolant leak (causing it to run hot) and that one or more plug wires were not one correctly is total BS. You need to make sure all the basic stuff is covered before you can move on to saying that it is the injectors and/or cam. Remember the saying Keep It Simple............So IMO I would make sure the air is out of the coolant system, make sure the wires are all on correctly and then take on a test run. If that doesn't solve the problem we can run more tests on it.

[ArmyRover]

well said.

Oh and I'll take the hit for not checking he plug wires at the cap I should have done that and didn't.

[MysteryTheatre]

Once you get the ignition wires all hooked up good , i'd throw a strobe on it & check the timing and also check to see your vacuum advance is operating. if there is a low vacuum condition the lack of vacuum can cause an extremely retarded spark at higher rpm's. which will lead to over heating. if this is the case... its a matter of finding the cause of the low vacuum. my prime suspects would be a clogged cat, or a leak somewhere in the intake . i assume since the engine is newly rebuilt the breather and pcv valve are good but you can check those too. just my cent and a half.

[Dr Lobster]

Ok, I've been reading this thread now since it was originally posted, and although I don't know a lot about Land Rovers, I have dealt with similar "ghost problem" situations with other vehicles, particularly Mitsubishi's. I am mechanicly inclined and prefer to work on my own vehicle, so I've learned alot through trial and error.

My Galant VR4 was doing the same thing as your RRC Cooking, but it ended up being a combination of problems that caused it, and as one was fixed, the others made themselves more apparent.

The bucking under load sounds like a Distributor problem, but this could be very deceiving if you also have a fuel pump on the fritz. My Mitsu has a Distributorless ignition, but relies on a Cam Angle Sensor to tell the the coils what and when. When it was going out, it gave me all the symptoms you are dealing with now, and when it was replaced with a working used unit (new unit is $779 from mitsu) it solved the problem, or so I thought. Not much later it started doing the same thing, and I assumed it was the CAS, so I replaced it with another tested used unit. Then the car wouldn't start at all. I left it for a few days, then it started right up and got me home. Then it never started again.

I tested the CAS again, and the other one I had been using, and they were both working, so I traced the problem back and realized that I had a faulty fuel pump, and it had totally crapped out (it was giving me the same symptom as the CAS, bucking and misfiring under load). I got a Walbro 255, and replaced the faulty pump and still no luck. I began to trace back again, and found that all the wiring to the fuel pump was corroded and was grounding out in the trunk (this was caused by water leaking into the trunk).

It got worse after I rewired, and I soon found out that the faulty wiring had killed the new fuel pump ($199). So finally, after rewiring, getting a new stock fuelpump, and checking everything twice, it started up no problem and gave me no issues until the next major problem (oil filter housing backed off the oilpump in rush hour traffic and I lost my oil filter).

Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that one problem could actually be many in a row, and was really curious if you had checked the fuel pump and the assembly??? You said it was bucking going up hill under load. If the fuelpump was starving going up hill, it would cause the bucking and misfiring that you explain, but, what the f%&K would cause that???

If the intake for the fuelpump in the tank isn't sitting where it needs to be in the tank, when you are heading up a hill with all the fuel towards the back of the tank, the fuelpump may be starving and giving you these symptoms. I only say this because people keep talking about injectors and fuel related issues, but I haven't heard anyone say anything about the fuelpump.

Just my $.02, and I'm sorry about the long explanation, but I've found that the DIY mechanics know alot more about vehicles than "professionals" by going to the School of Hard Knocks at F*&K S^&t Up University.

I don't know if LR's have a Check Engine code for the fuel pump, but my Mitsu didn't and even the "professionals" who worked on it couldn't figure it out. It took a friend and some DIY time and the problem was solved.

Oh, yeah, my Mitsu also had problems with the coolant reservoir during all of this as well.

Whatever, hope this might help some.

[MysteryTheatre]

who ruled out fuel delivery? was the truck running like Sh*t when they decided the fuel delivery was good because you can't diagnose the problem with the truck running fine, you have to get it to run like Sh#t then figure out why, seems like common sense right? , but reading these posts i'm beginning to wonder what's in that lasangna!!!

[ArmyRover]

brand new fuel pump was installed.

[apbtpetey]

Any word on how it's running after making sure all the plug wires are on correctly???

[Dr Lobster]

Originally Posted by ArmyRover

brand new fuel pump was installed.

Sorry Army, I must have missed that, so I guess that rules that problem out. What about wiring to the fuel pump and the relay that turns it on??

I'm really scratching my head now.

The only reason I mention wiring again is because electrical problems seem to be the mantra with all Land Rovers.

Then again, I may not really know anything at all being a noob to the LR scene.

$.02 more to add to the pot.

Sorry if I keep repeating stuff that has already been checked, but I feel bad for Cooking and this ordeal he's having with his RR.

I must say, it is great to have such a helpful community of LR owners. This forum and it's members should be the cookie cutter for all forums on the internet dealing with autos.