Well i still cant beleive that you dont snap axles.
There is another guy that gets out alot running stock also So what do i know.
I have popped mine on a similar stuff. I must be a bad driver,and im not a throttle happy guy.
hers a pic in my back lot on the RTE ramp
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I actually do run Maxi-drive axles these days in the rear. But the question was whether bigger tyres require HD axles and the answer is still no.
If you have ever driven your vehicle on or off road at maximum power, that is the maximum stress that can be put on the axles. You put bigger wheels on and the motor does not suddenly find more power to turn the wheels. It is the same amount of power that is coming through the axles.
Now, the things that will require axle upgrades are:
1) Changing diff ratios to 4.11 or higher
2) Getting into the harder terrain, particularly lose rock and mud with solid objects in it.
3) Getting a Detroit locker. They are designed in a way that is particularly hard on axles.
In regard to being able to afford things. The Rangie has cost me well over $30,000 over the years and there is nothing I want or need that is not on it.
I actually do run Maxi-drive axles these days in the rear. But the question was whether bigger tyres require HD axles and the answer is still no.
If you have ever driven your vehicle on or off road at maximum power, that is the maximum stress that can be put on the axles. You put bigger wheels on and the motor does not suddenly find more power to turn the wheels. It is the same amount of power that is coming through the axles.
I agree with a lot you are saying in this thread, but not this last statement, in fact it boarders on total and utter bollox.
First off you have the extra wieght and inertia generated by larger wheels and tyres, this alone will place far more stress on components. Combine this with the fact that many larger (agressive) tyres also don't balance as well will only mean more potenial issues.
Second, is simple physics - leverage. A larger diamter tyre will have far more leverage than a smaller one. And this isn't about power either, its about when a wheel is stopped. Example,
Driving over very rough hard mud/grass full of rabbit holes or similar, or over uneven rocky terrain, with power on a wheel may drop in a hole and essentially become stuck or cease rotation, the larger tyre will have far greater leverage here with greater likely hood of breaking something. In much the same way that a screw driver makes it easier to turn a screw due to having a wider handle compared to the shaft, it's all about leverage.
__________________ Land Rover Discovery (3 Door) 200Tdi 5-speed Mods:Allisport LARGE FMIC | Allisport Tuned | Simex Jungle Trekker II 33.11.50R15 Tyres | 15x8 8 Spokes | Heavy Duty Uprated Suspension (shocks & springs) | Wheel arch Flares | 1" Wheel Spacers | Custom Straight Thru Exhaust | Custom Trimmed Front bumper with twin NATO Hooks | Custom Rear Bumper with single Large NATO Hook 360˚ Swival | Front Light Guards | Custom Aluminium Rear Floor | Bonnet Straps | 100w Spot Lights | Upgraded Headlights
The leverage is not coming from the tyre, it is the axle that is levering the tyre around. Look at it as if you are trying to undo a nut with a spanner. It does not matter how tight the nut is, there is only so much pressure you can put on the spanner. So the nut won't turn no matter how hard you try, so you go get your strong mate to try and turn it (Bigger motor). He might be able to put enough force on the spanner to either break the spannner or the bolt. This does not work so you grab a hammer and start belting the spanner (shock loading). Again you run the risk of breaking the spanner or bolt. You could also try putting a pipe on the end of the spanner to give extra leverage (changing diff or transfer case ratios) and you again run the risk of breaking things.
But why it is just you using the spanner, you will not break anything until you throw it because it won't undo the nut.
Does anyone here suggest that if I tied my rangie to a tree at the front of my house, and tried to drive off, that I would break the axles. This is a place of maximum traction and you all know that the motor would stall before anything broke. In this instance I have maximum pressure on the axles with all the power that the motor can put out.
Putting a 4.0ltr or 4.6ltr motor in a rangie built with a 3.5 has more chance of breaking axles. Yet the axles in the 3.5 are probably stronger than the axles fitted to a newer 4.6.
I agree with your earlier statements that I see a lot more C&Ps and CVs break than axles.
I have purposely left a weak point in my drive train (front final drives). Something will break from time to time and the idea is to make it the easiest thing to fix. It takes less than 5 minutes to change the final drive.
People are confusing what I am saying. I have never said that HD axles are not a reasonable addition, but you do not need them for larger tyres and they are probably last on the list of things you would do.
If I had to rank the things to do to a 4WD, they would be:
1) Descent tyres and what you have to do to fit them.
2) Flexable springs that centre the diff within the articulation.
3) Rear diff lock
4) Winch
5) Front diff lock
6) change gearing to suit the larger wheels you fitted and at the same time upgrade your axles.
But of course you would fit HD axles if you fitted a Detroit locker in the rear.
If you have ever driven your vehicle on or off road at maximum power, that is the maximum stress that can be put on the axles. You put bigger wheels on and the motor does not suddenly find more power to turn the wheels. It is the same amount of power that is coming through the axles.
.
This is just not true. When you're driving on the road, all four wheels are sitting flat on the ground. The stress from the drive-train is distributed over the tires getting power - whether it's 2 or 4 tires all at once.
When you're off-road, this stress could be directed to a single tire. Besides that, if you are climbing an object, more skinny petal is required to overcome that object - most/all of the time in low range. Low gear and the motor building power makes a lot of ft-lb's.
So no, the same forces that a wheel may see on the road is NOT, not even close, to the amount of force it will see off-road.
Look at your above comments about what tires get better traction on the road - it a slick, right? So, does a slick do well off-road, too??? These MT style tires are designed to grip off-road; they get more traction off-road then they ever would on the road. Increase to a large rolling diameter or bigger foot print, and the amount of traction or stress on the axles could easily double.
Bigger tires break axles. Period. Try putting 52" tires on you POS and try to go off-road with stock axles. I bet you do not make it to the trail head. What about monster truck tires? Do they not add extra stress, either?
Roverzuce. Who are you? Do you also use another username on this forum? Do you actually read what you write? How can anyone suggest that a tyre actually gets better traction off-road than on the road?
You have suggested that axles are subject to different forces off-road, and you are correct. But you have not given any indication as to why bigger tyres actually add more stress.
Obviously people just like making statements that sound good on the surface with nothing to back them up. The people who want to listen have and the rest I really don't care what you do. Go buy you HD axles and/or make your cars look like monster trucks.
I have wasted a lot of money on my Rangie on things that either did not work or were not required. My answers have only been an attempt to save others the same expensive lessons. This thread was about what was required to fit bigger tyres and it has been answered.
ok Ian I'm not arguing about the the suitability of larger tyres on stock axles, in fact I do agree with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by p76rangie
The leverage is not coming from the tyre, it is the axle that is levering the tyre around. Look at it as if you are trying to undo a nut with a spanner. It does not matter how tight the nut is, there is only so much pressure you can put on the spanner.
However I don't agree with your explanation. And this statement of yours in the hub of y meaning, larger tyres are not a kin to undoing a nut with a spanner, this is because the wheel is spining.
The leverage I speak of comes when the wheel increases grip and tries to stop spinning, a larger tyre will have far greater leverage than a smaller one.
Imagin jacking your RR off the ground, slip it in gear and let it tick over (no lockers) the wheels would spin gentle, if you went up and grabbed on of the wheels the diff would kick in and you would be able to stop the wheel (there used to be a Land Rover promotional vid of an engineer doing this and explaining about the CDL).
However you wouldn't be strong enough to stop the the drive shaft if you tried to grab on the stub axle. This is because the large diamter of the tyre offers you more leverage.
Now imagine you either have lockers, or plenty of grip on the other 3 wheels and while driving with power on the wheel drops into a rutted rabbit hole or similar and thus almost locking it. This would place a lot of stress on the drivetrain components and larger wheel would have more leverage to break something.
So it's the stopping rather than the going part of rotating a larger tyre that can have more potentially detrimental affects on the axles/diff.
__________________ Land Rover Discovery (3 Door) 200Tdi 5-speed Mods:Allisport LARGE FMIC | Allisport Tuned | Simex Jungle Trekker II 33.11.50R15 Tyres | 15x8 8 Spokes | Heavy Duty Uprated Suspension (shocks & springs) | Wheel arch Flares | 1" Wheel Spacers | Custom Straight Thru Exhaust | Custom Trimmed Front bumper with twin NATO Hooks | Custom Rear Bumper with single Large NATO Hook 360˚ Swival | Front Light Guards | Custom Aluminium Rear Floor | Bonnet Straps | 100w Spot Lights | Upgraded Headlights
You could also argue that Swampers or Simex have less grip on rocks that say a MTR. So if I go to a standard size MTR, should I upgrade my axles.
I could also argue that Swampers or Simex have better grip inslippery surfaces than MTs and are therefore less like to spin and are therefore less likely to shock load the axle.
265 tyres may have more grip than the standard 205 tyres. Should I upgrade axles if I go wider rather than taller tyres.
But all we are talking about is tread patterns and not the size of the tyre.
Roverzuce. Who are you? Do you also use another username on this forum? Do you actually read what you write? How can anyone suggest that a tyre actually gets better traction off-road than on the road?
You have suggested that axles are subject to different forces off-road, and you are correct. But you have not given any indication as to why bigger tyres actually add more stress.
Sorry Ian, but the simple truth is they do.
In the Fbody world (that's Camaro's and Trans Am's) running 28" slicks/DR's over 26" slicks or DR's places far greater stress on the already shite GM 10 bolt rear end. It's just a no no and a well accepted fact that you need a better rear end for larger tyres espcially with a manual as they then to take more punishment drag racing. GM 12 bolt or Ford 9" are the common swaps.
With the fairly weak Dana 35 rear the YJ and TJ Jeeps know all about the hazzards of running larger tyres.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YJ FYI page
I want to run 35" or larger tires, what should I do to reduce breakage? - The front Dana 30 axle is fairly strong, and can handle upto 37" tires if you aren't too hard on the gas-peddle. The rear Dana 35 is not as strong, and its maximum recommended tire-size is 33". To strengthen the rear axle, Superior Gear has the Super 35 kit to increase the strength of the stock rear axle, combine that with a truss and you will have less chance of breakage. Replacing the rear axle with a Ford 8.8" (out of a 1995 or newer Explorer), or a Dana 44 (Metric-tonne Commanche (MJ), Towing-package Cherokee (XJ)) are a direct bolt-in once the spring perches are welded into place. Also, some of the newer Toyota axles also have the same wheel-bolt-pattern as a stock YJ, and their width is just about perfect as well.
__________________ Land Rover Discovery (3 Door) 200Tdi 5-speed Mods:Allisport LARGE FMIC | Allisport Tuned | Simex Jungle Trekker II 33.11.50R15 Tyres | 15x8 8 Spokes | Heavy Duty Uprated Suspension (shocks & springs) | Wheel arch Flares | 1" Wheel Spacers | Custom Straight Thru Exhaust | Custom Trimmed Front bumper with twin NATO Hooks | Custom Rear Bumper with single Large NATO Hook 360˚ Swival | Front Light Guards | Custom Aluminium Rear Floor | Bonnet Straps | 100w Spot Lights | Upgraded Headlights
You could also argue that Swampers or Simex have less grip on rocks that say a MTR. So if I go to a standard size MTR, should I upgrade my axles.
I could also argue that Swampers or Simex have better grip inslippery surfaces than MTs and are therefore less like to spin and are therefore less likely to shock load the axle.
265 tyres may have more grip than the standard 205 tyres. Should I upgrade axles if I go wider rather than taller tyres.
But all we are talking about is tread patterns and not the size of the tyre.
Not sure why you are bringing tyre brand into this, yes they can be a factor but tyre diameter still plays a big role.
I really am not sure how else to explain this. OK try this,
Imagine a radio controlled 1/10th scale off road race truck like a Losi. They uses small motors with a pinion, if the motor is spinning you have no chance of stopping it with you hands because the pinion is so small.
However install the motor in the truck and with the same power you can quite easily stop the motor by grabbing on of the wheels of the truck.
HOW so? The motor still has the same power.
Well partly it will be due to grip, but a larger surface area (like a larger off road tyre) will have a bigger foot print and more grip. But mostly the ability to stop the motor was due to the extra leverage derived by the tyre itself.
Now stopping the motor on full power by grabbing the wheel will likely break something, spur gear, pinion gear or what ever.
On a Land Rover if a 29" wheel gets in a position like the formentioned rabbit hole or when rock crawling where more of the tyre is in contact with something and thus more grip it will place stress on the drivetrain components.
A larger wheel with more grip will stop harder producing more inertia (the smaller wheel may be more likely to wheel spin). And due to the bigger diameter the force applied (shock load) on the drivetrain will be much greater.
If you want to use your stuck nut basis it would be like using a 4" spanner and not moving it, then upping to a 9" spanner and having enough leverage to snap the bolt.
__________________ Land Rover Discovery (3 Door) 200Tdi 5-speed Mods:Allisport LARGE FMIC | Allisport Tuned | Simex Jungle Trekker II 33.11.50R15 Tyres | 15x8 8 Spokes | Heavy Duty Uprated Suspension (shocks & springs) | Wheel arch Flares | 1" Wheel Spacers | Custom Straight Thru Exhaust | Custom Trimmed Front bumper with twin NATO Hooks | Custom Rear Bumper with single Large NATO Hook 360˚ Swival | Front Light Guards | Custom Aluminium Rear Floor | Bonnet Straps | 100w Spot Lights | Upgraded Headlights
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