OFFROVN - help - Land Rover Forums : Land Rover and Range Rover Forum
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post #1 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 06:55 AM Thread Starter
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OFFROVN - help

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I agree it is probably a knocked wire or sensor that is causing me all this grief....
So did you ever check the wires for insulation flaking, burned or missing to the crank sensor? If you did you never said so. It's a common fail item on these motors and it can lead to no start, stumbling or loss of power. Please look.

Next is the crank sensor itself since your already down there, remove it and check it's pin, your looking for any deformity of that pin.

Next is the inspection plate under the tranny, remove it and check the reluctance ring. Look for any bent tabs. The crank sensor is looking for a gap, when it sees two it will still spark but not correctly in the motors combustion cycle.

Those are three really easy checks and you don't need a dial gauge for it and no more guessing on that end of things. I've about had enough of the wild goose chase, time to get down to brass tacks.

I know you wheel this truck so it's worth a look see.

I've moved this from the idiot thread two retards are having to offset Viagra withdrawal
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97 SD - Altai Silver. Sold
94 Saturn SC2

Roverless and wandering

The three-position Lucas switch--DIM, FLICKER and OFF.

The other three switch settings--SMOKE, SMOLDER and IGNITE.


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post #2 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ihscouts View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OFFROVN

So did you ever check the wires for insulation flaking, burned or missing to the crank sensor? If you did you never said so. It's a common fail item on these motors and it can lead to no start, stumbling or loss of power. Please look.

Next is the crank sensor itself since your already down there, remove it and check it's pin, your looking for any deformity of that pin.

Next is the inspection plate under the tranny, remove it and check the reluctance ring. Look for any bent tabs. The crank sensor is looking for a gap, when it sees two it will still spark but not correctly in the motors combustion cycle.

Those are three really easy checks and you don't need a dial gauge for it and no more guessing on that end of things. I've about had enough of the wild goose chase, time to get down to brass tacks.

I know you wheel this truck so it's worth a look see.

I've moved this from the idiot thread two retards are having to offset Viagra withdrawal


Scout...I just removed the Crank sensor today....I did NOT inspect the wires...They are protected by a sheath, but I honestly forgot... I will inspect them tomorrow, and report back (I removed it without dropping the exhaust and my arm and wrist were taxed beyond human tolerance, so I got out from under there ASAP!..Two elbows would have been VERY handy...) LOL - OUCH!!!...

I did notice that one of the two bolts securing the crank sensor was loose and the heat shield was wiggling around but the other bolt was tight so the sensor itself was secure....Curious, the bolt was loose and had turned out about 4 revolutions but NOT gone....Lucky??? or UN-lucky??? I have a new crank sensor coming, just for insurance..The CkPS that I removed was in perfect shape and showed no visible signs of any problems. The CkPS that I removed from my parts truck had been hit by the rectifier ring and was bent, so at least I know what f*ocked up one looks like LOL!

The flywheel and rectifier ring has been thoroughly inspected and are in perfect condition..NO signs of any abnormalities...

Unfortunately, the goose chase is still ON...But temporarily "on the pond" ....I am waiting for parts so I can reassemble it and get back to finding my "NO-Start" issue....In the mean time I have assembled everything related to the ignition and fueling end of the equation. From what I have read...If I still have a no-start problem I am to investigate the alarm circuitry. I have read that with a malfunction of any of the locking actuators the alarm system will go NO START on me. BUT, that should either cause a "no spark" or a "no fuel" issue...I have BOTH....I have the BIG 4....but was unsure on the "timing" and that points to either the ECM (I have a spare) or the Crank Sensor, which is what I would lay my money on...(I have a spare...)

Oh, and brASS tacks???....So that is what has been sticking me in the ass, for the last week!!! LOL
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post #3 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 07:02 PM
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Ihscouts - thanks for removing all those posts and cleaning up this thread.

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post #4 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 08:47 PM Thread Starter
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Your welcome to both of you. I've never been a fan of bs cluttering up a help thread and this IS a help thread. When I join in I'm committed to getting THE problem solved. So far we've not left square one but there's plenty of knowns now so it's only a matter of time before the obvious hits all of us between the eyeballs.

Tom, keep at it on the crank sensor, glad you had the patience to look at it and I absolutely know how it feels getting to it. I also know that you've lost compression due to washing down the cylinders, it's gonna take a lot of cranking to get the rings to seal back up, you may want to proactively squirt a shot of oil in to get the rings at least coated before trying to start it up again.

You have knock sensors on your block, bottom of the skirt. All GEMS trucks do, there used by the ECU to adjust timing while running.

You have an AEL truck, something that can also effect a no start is the throttle position sensor. Here's a link on what can effect the TPS; Tps problem - Land Rover Forums - Land Rover Enthusiast Forum

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The three-position Lucas switch--DIM, FLICKER and OFF.

The other three switch settings--SMOKE, SMOLDER and IGNITE.


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post #5 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 05:21 AM
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I have no Rover based experience with this issue, but I was thinking back a few years to a similar problem. It ended up being as simple as a corroded connection.

When plugged in, everything in the ECU looked good. But when cranking, it wouldn't start. Turns out the ECU main power feed had a weak connection. It got enough power to function with the engine off, but not enough to run. A simple test- find the main power connection at the ECU, then jumper directly to the battery. Also, take a look at where the unit grounds. This may be a wild goose chase, but you're running out of options.
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post #6 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ihscouts View Post
You have an AEL truck, something that can also effect a no start is the throttle position sensor. Here's a link on what can effect the TPS; Tps problem - Land Rover Forums - Land Rover Enthusiast Forum
On reading that thread it appears that the fault ended up being in the fuel pump and not the TPS.
A faulty TPS will cause idle issues and flat spots when accelerating, etc. It should not stop the motor from starting. But stranger things have happened.

Again from the RAVE.

Throttle position sensor (TP Sensor)
The throttle position sensor is mounted on the plenum chamber and connected directly to the throttle shaft. The sensor is a variable resistor, the signal from which (0 - 5V) informs the ECM of the actual position of the throttle disc. As there is no default strategy, failure of the sensor will result in poor idle and lack of throttle response. If failure occurs in the closed position the engine will only reach 1750 rev/min when the ECM will initiate overrun fuel cut off. The fault is indicated by illumination of the malfunction indicator light (MIL) on North American specification vehicles.

Waiting to hear back on what happens when he switches the ECU. It is possible that the ECU got a few thousand volts when the intention leads were left floating around.
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post #7 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 06:43 AM Thread Starter
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What isn't said in that thread is that the two are electrically tied together on the same circuit, one effects the other hence the TPS problem. Glad you mentioned it. I deleted the Private Mail that Tom R and I exchanged about it. So don't overlook it Tom.

97 SD - Altai Silver. Sold
94 Saturn SC2

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The three-position Lucas switch--DIM, FLICKER and OFF.

The other three switch settings--SMOKE, SMOLDER and IGNITE.


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post #8 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 11:00 AM
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Scout said: "You have knock sensors on your block, bottom of the skirt. All GEMS trucks do, there used by the ECU to adjust timing while running. "


Not to be combative here, but I swear I have read that the '97-98" GEMS w/ AEL eliminated the knock sensors....The rave manual (which I have yet to master) states that the knock sensors are on all GEMS engines and located them on the cylinder head between cylinders 2-4 and 3-5...My Rover has elimination plugs there and NO sensor whatsoever....Can you point me in the right direction?...

My camera is malfunctioning ..I wanted to post a pic of the head with the elimination plug, where the knock sensor should be.....
You mentioned it is on the skirt. I am usually pretty good at locating a "skirt," but no luck....What is the "skirt" on an engine???

I am still trying to find the article I read about the 97 AEL eliminating the knock sensor.....I have read SO many articles, threads, posts, manuals, I am about to lose my mind....I remember some telling me, at one point, that I finally sounded "sober'...LOL, I am usually sober, but Land Rovers can certainly "Drive a man to DRINK" LOL



p.s. It is snowing here in the Rocky Mountains, so I am at a stand still today...Utah weather is fickle at best...High tomorrow is forecast to be in the high 60s. Springtime in Wasatch Range...fun times...I will work in the cold, but I draw the line with snow and cold rain....

Just because you can afford to BUY a Land Rover...Doesn't mean you can afford to OWN a Land Rover...."BEND ROVER"
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post #9 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 11:16 AM Thread Starter
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It's pretty cold here too, around 37 and windy and I think I saw a couple of snow flakes.

I can't give you pictures off my truck because I no longer have it here. The sensors are on all GEMS equipped Rovers whether it's a Disco or P38...... the evap system type is irrelevant to ignition timing. Not arguing either, just know my NAS trucks of that period.

Knock sensors
The knock sensor produces an output voltage in
proportion to mechanical vibration caused by the
engine. A sensor is located in each cylinder bank
between 2/4 and 3/5 cylinders. The ECM calculates if
the engine is knocking due to camshaft and
crankshaft sensor signals regarding the position of the
engine in the cycle. The ECM can also work out
exactly which cylinder is knocking and retards the
ignition on that particular cylinder until the knock
disappears. It then advances the ignition to find the
optimum ignition timing for that cylinder. The ECM can
adjust the timing of each cylinder for knock
simultaneously. It is possible that all eight cylinders
could have different advance angles at the same time.
If the camshaft sensor fails, the knock sensor will
continue to work, but as the engine may be running
one revolution out of sychronisation the ECM may
retard the wrong cylinder of the pair e.g. 1 instead of
6. If the knock sensor fails engine knock will not be
detected and corrected. The fault is indicated by
illumination of the malfunction indicator light (MIL) on
North American specification vehicles.

The sensors are located down the block by the skirt (what the oil pan bolts to).

97 SD - Altai Silver. Sold
94 Saturn SC2

Roverless and wandering

The three-position Lucas switch--DIM, FLICKER and OFF.

The other three switch settings--SMOKE, SMOLDER and IGNITE.


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post #10 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 12:59 PM
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It's pretty cold here too, around 37 and windy and I think I saw a couple of snow flakes.

I can't give you pictures off my truck because I no longer have it here. The sensors are on all GEMS equipped Rovers whether it's a Disco or P38...... the evap system type is irrelevant to ignition timing. Not arguing either, just know my NAS trucks of that period.

Knock sensors
The knock sensor produces an output voltage in
proportion to mechanical vibration caused by the
engine. A sensor is located in each cylinder bank
between 2/4 and 3/5 cylinders. The ECM calculates if
the engine is knocking due to camshaft and
crankshaft sensor signals regarding the position of the
engine in the cycle. The ECM can also work out
exactly which cylinder is knocking and retards the
ignition on that particular cylinder until the knock
disappears. It then advances the ignition to find the
optimum ignition timing for that cylinder. The ECM can
adjust the timing of each cylinder for knock
simultaneously. It is possible that all eight cylinders
could have different advance angles at the same time.
If the camshaft sensor fails, the knock sensor will
continue to work, but as the engine may be running
one revolution out of sychronisation the ECM may
retard the wrong cylinder of the pair e.g. 1 instead of
6. If the knock sensor fails engine knock will not be
detected and corrected. The fault is indicated by
illumination of the malfunction indicator light (MIL) on
North American specification vehicles.

The sensors are located down the block by the skirt (what the oil pan bolts to).
FOUND THEM!!!
See Mom, good things do happen to guys who look up skirts!!!!

Oh, and by the way: Like I have to talk to someone form Northern Lake Michigan about crazy weather...I am originally from Just north of Niagara Falls, NY and summered on an island on Georgian Bay...I often tell these Utahns they don't know shit about winter weather....I say: "You know what winter is, when it is 20 below zero, snowing, and the wind is cranking at 60+...When snow HURTS, you know "Old Man Winter"...LOL


Scout said: "Just know my NAS trucks of that period."

YESSIR, YOU DO!!!!

I also know them, but I am, and always have been, intimidated by auto-electrics.....So, I always defer to questions rather than unsure actions....I shouldn't say "always" because I fell victim to my "cock-suredness" on this project, when I prematurely tore into my engine after what I was sure was a raped camshaft gear....
And, for the record, I have a PhD in "Dumbassitosis" LOL!

Just because you can afford to BUY a Land Rover...Doesn't mean you can afford to OWN a Land Rover...."BEND ROVER"
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post #11 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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We have two seasons here, winter and not winter. We get maybe three months of not winter. If it hits 80* people belly ache it's too hot.

Anyways, glad you found the knock sensors, they're an integral part of the GEMS suite. Like I pointed out to Ian, the TPS/Fuel Tank Pressure sensor could also be a possibility in the no start issue. Worth a look under the fuel pump cover, easier than the crank sensor. I have a couple more up my sleeve but we'll get there when we get there, you have to get it back together first. My day job is working with large complex machinery. A Rover in comparison is not very challenging.

97 SD - Altai Silver. Sold
94 Saturn SC2

Roverless and wandering

The three-position Lucas switch--DIM, FLICKER and OFF.

The other three switch settings--SMOKE, SMOLDER and IGNITE.


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post #12 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:31 PM
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Thumbs up

Hey fellas, I didn't follow this thread, but since you're getting in depth with a possible cps issue, i thought i would add my recent experience; i replaced mine with a new (cheap) one from fleabay. Obviously not a Bosch. The truck would intermittently stall while idling at a light, and would crank for a long time before restarting. Then, it would run fine for days (daily driver) or weeks before acting up again. Since I only replaced it as a PM measure (115k mi.), and it ran fine before that, I decided to reinstall the original Bosch sensor. It's been running fine ever since. I don't know if the OP used a Bosch or not but there ya go, for what it's worth..
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post #13 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:39 PM Thread Starter
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That's because I cut off the head of the original thread. Had to clean it up because two members here can't be on the same internet next to each other. That's good info to know, thanks for tossing it out there.

One other thing to note now that's it's too late......and this is for you Tom, never mess with the scene of the crime, it destroys evidence.......

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94 Saturn SC2

Roverless and wandering

The three-position Lucas switch--DIM, FLICKER and OFF.

The other three switch settings--SMOKE, SMOLDER and IGNITE.


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post #14 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:49 PM
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We have two seasons here, winter and not winter. We get maybe three months of not winter. If it hits 80* people belly ache it's too hot.

Anyways, glad you found the knock sensors, they're an integral part of the GEMS suite. Like I pointed out to Ian, the TPS/Fuel Tank Pressure sensor could also be a possibility in the no start issue. Worth a look under the fuel pump cover, easier than the crank sensor. I have a couple more up my sleeve but we'll get there when we get there, you have to get it back together first. My day job is working with large complex machinery. A Rover in comparison is not very challenging.
The problem is that it is too difficult diagnosing things over the internet.
We are starting to grasp at straws.
He had stated previously that he had correct fuel pressure.
He stated that he had checked the injectors and they were putting out fuel.
He has tried starting it with adding fuel down the intake.
He has tried starting it with cutting out the fuel.
The above should indicate that it is not a fuel issue.
The compression test went nowhere near the fuel tank were the the issue your thread was related to.
A faulty TPS should not stop the motor from starting.
He has compression.
He has fuel.
By elimination, it is most likely something to do with spark.
He states that he has spark.
So this hopefully narrows it down to timing.
I have previously suggested finding TDC and then marking the pulley every 90 degrees to make sure that the spark on each of the 4 coils appear to be lining up correctly. I do not believe he has done this yet.
As the spark is controlled through the ECU, it could be at fault. He states that he has a spare ECU, but I have not heard whether he has fitted it yet.

I would therefore think that the next steps should be to change over the ECU and check the timing.
If that does not work, then we starting getting into things that should not stop the motor but maybe are for some reason.
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post #15 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 04:27 PM
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We have two seasons here, winter and not winter. We get maybe three months of not winter. If it hits 80* people belly ache it's too hot.

Anyways, glad you found the knock sensors, they're an integral part of the GEMS suite. Like I pointed out to Ian, the TPS/Fuel Tank Pressure sensor could also be a possibility in the no start issue. Worth a look under the fuel pump cover, easier than the crank sensor. I have a couple more up my sleeve but we'll get there when we get there, you have to get it back together first. My day job is working with large complex machinery. A Rover in comparison is not very challenging.
Haa haa haaa, Yeah, Last year I think we had 3-1/2 days of Spring...LOL

I am all in on the sensor chase, but we have to remember that she was running fine before I decided to do my curiosity compression test....Something like the fuel pressure sensor would be a very large coincidence....But, I am going into the fuel pump area anyway, as I am still chasing and frankly at my wits end on a slow fueling issue...Obviously a venting issue and already replaced the trickle valve and blew out the vent lines....another day......

I spend my days...YANKING MY CRANK...shaft sensor...LOL

Just because you can afford to BUY a Land Rover...Doesn't mean you can afford to OWN a Land Rover...."BEND ROVER"
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