The "Don't Hate Me" Hybrid - Land Rover Forums : Land Rover and Range Rover Forum
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-06-2011, 07:06 PM Thread Starter
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The "Don't Hate Me" Hybrid

Hi, My name is Morgan and please don't hate my project.

This seems to be one of the best forums on the net for landy knowledge with a very active community. I figured this would be the best place to ask questions related to what I am doing with my rover.

Ok, so I was bit a few years back with the bug and I bought a nice 74 series III 109 ex Mod. I stripped and painted it, did minor normal repairs, and drove it. About 2 years ago I swamped it in deep mud in my farm field. When I got it out started knocking, I drove it back to my shop, about 1000 feet and drained the fluids, still knocked. It didn't make sense so I pulled the pan and caked in the bottom of the pan was thick thick riverbank silt that was caked in the pan. Well my yard is clay so I assume it was the previous owner that left me with that present, or the MOD. Needless to say This started my repower.

The following in many circles considered Land Rover Blasphemy, If you wish to come to my house and explain why I should not do this, please do; but bring parts.

My goal is to basically wrap my land rover around the components that I have acquired to make a very capable expedition vehicle to the point of overkill.
To my knowledge there are very few Cummins 6BT diesel powered rovers in the US, which is a good enough reason for me to do it. Throw in a 13 speed medium truck transmission, 20:1 low gear with a NP205 gear to gear transfer case. Then down to a Dana 60/70 rears. This will allow me to choose a optimum gear for any sort of terrain.

Right now I am down to the bare frame, installing the front axle. Keeping to the expedition idea no fancy 4 link or coil springs. Leaf springs front and rear to carry heavy loads. The Dana 60 and 70 also share some parts so less spares to carry. My issue right now is drive line length of course. Even with running a defender style grille (I was thinking of making a custom Series III grill that sits flush like a defender to set it apart from all the other defender clones), I am still estimating about 6-8 inches short in the rear for prop shaft length. Right now I am thinking of extending the frame to 127" (130), staying with rover numbers and either running a truck cab and making a expedition bed, or extending the frame right between the rear fuel tank bracket and the outrigger front of the rear spring. This would let me keep the series bed in the same location on the frame, and extend the "cab" area, in the hopes a 130 canvas top will fit.

My first question for the site is,
How do the high cap pickup truck cabs work? They must use a different "back" section that makes up for the tub not being there to act to enclose the back of the cab. Is that same piece of bodywork used when making the 130 crew cab pickup? Are there any dimensional drawings of the 130 frame available?

I am really apprehensive about posting this but I need to find out Rover answers from Rover people. Where I live there's a guy with a D90 I see on the road but as far as series trucks I'm it. Theres not really any local gurus to go talk to. I just hope that you see that its not about killing a rover, as it is about making the ultimate series rover with new technology.

Here is a link to my build thread on 4btswaps.com

Any help is appreciated,
Morgan
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 03:11 PM
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Pick up

Hi
I have the piece you are asking about that I will using on my project. I bought it from RDS and it is a new piece painted white. I do not know if he can get another piece. The high cap piece bolts straight in and replaces the rear body box. The seat box bolts to it, the rails under the door and the tabs to the frame are all the same. I hope this helps.
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-09-2011, 11:37 AM
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First of all, please don't take this as a criticism of the project, this is the hybrid section after all. Besides an EX-MOD Series III 109 is not exactly a rare bird so no tears need to be shead at it loss of originality.

Problem, the proposed gearbox and transfer case combo. With the Big ol cummins diesel torque monster and a gearbox sporting a 13 speed gear box 20:1 granny cogs how long do you expect the light duty truck 205 T'case, drive shafts and Dana axles to last?

For ideas for how to truck cab a 'standard' LR then look to the Winch Challenge competition vehicles as this is a common modification when a Land Rover is turned into a "Tray Back".

If this was my project, and I realize its not so this is just my 2c, I would buy an older cummins 2500/3500 Dodge cab and chassis in the shortest configuration possible. remove the cab and adjust the Series III bodywork to fit as needed.....Job done.

A expedition vehicle should be as standard as possible to aid in ease of repair so why re-invent the wheel? All of the difficult engineering has been done for you and will be more reliable if can keep as much of the important parts of the dodge donor as intact as possible.

Good luck with the project.

"Your only supposed to blow the BLOODY DOORS OFF" Charlie Croaker. The Italian Job. 1969.


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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-09-2011, 07:29 PM Thread Starter
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280GE: I guess your talking about Rovers Down South? I will have to look into that.

Roverandom: Thanks for the good response. The transmission I am using Is huge, admitted, but I think that component longevity will be directly related to the right foot. The idea of the transmission was to make the engine work less to accomplish the same task, as well as having proper gearing for just about any terrain. As far as the 205 and the Dana 60/70 they were used in factory dodges behind the cummins and last well enough.

If I had not already sourced the components, a dodge chassis would have been a workable idea, but the rover frame is actually heavier duty in my opinion and is more easily modified for what I need.

Also I will check out the Winch Challenge, as my bodywork ideas are up in the air still. a SIII double cab with the long bed would be nice, but I am thinking that I might just scoot the rear axle back a bit to keep the total truck length the same and massage the rear wheel wells, for ease of getting around trails. m starting to fear that the long wheel base will kill me where I want to go, which is mostly Maine/WV wilderness. Every "overlanding" 130 report I see is either perfect terrain or green laneing in the UK/Europe, I have yet to find a writeup of a 130 doing eastern U.S. fire roads or trails.
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-10-2011, 08:23 AM
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Yep, wheel base and turning circle are both critical when tackling tight trails if you want to keep your bodywork intact.

As for the power train, really its the gearbox that will cause the problem. The cummins diesel will make lots of torque at very low rpm, that's its party trick, so unless your building a dumper truck it will be more than enough engine for your needs. And you are correct about the T'case and axles, in a standard Dodge set up with a light duty manual or auto tranny it would be fine, even with big tyres.

But once you couple that Big Diesel up to that medium duty gearbox the torque multiplication going into the (comparatively) light duty 205 T'case, drive shafts/U joints and differential gears, axle shafts etc. will be far in excess of their design parameters resulting in breakage.
The engine will not break a sweat but everything south of the gearbox will be on overload. You probably will not even need lower six gears in a light Land Rover.

"Your only supposed to blow the BLOODY DOORS OFF" Charlie Croaker. The Italian Job. 1969.


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Last edited by roverandom; 02-10-2011 at 01:09 PM.
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-10-2011, 08:47 AM
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I drove a SIIA 109 with a 6BT Cummins in it. It had a Series transfer case and LT-230, stock axles.

I've ridden in an 88" SIIA with a 4BT, I'm certain if given a chance, it would climb trees.

Those engines are beautiful in Series trucks.

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-11-2011, 12:24 PM Thread Starter
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roverandom, I understand that alot of it will be on overload, and who knows if I extend the wheel base I might be able to put a heavier duty Tcase in but from what I have seen in the past a 205 is pretty bomb proof. On the 4bt swaps site and around the net there are a few guys running the Roadranger 10 and 13 speeds with the 205 and either dana or chevy 14 bolt axles and havent seen issues yet. Some even with booty fab couplers.
That being said I had planned on installing driveshaft loops/skid plates with cheap U joints to be my fuse for the torque problem. When and If I do break a axle shaft atleast it will be eaiser for me in the states to find parts for Dana rears then source another rover axle. And with tools and onboard air a broken U joint only takes about a hour to fix on the trail.

PTSchram: I recognize your name from Pirate and Handbuilts rig. He is part of the inspiration for me to do this. I won't lie. I am afraid to post my build or ask questions over there becuase I doubt its extreme enough. That, and I don't have Kings Brah.

I have been thinking though that 75% of this vehicles useage will be on the road, and 25% camping offroad so the sacrafice in wheelbase for 4 doors might be worthwhile. Just have to hunt up sheetmetal.
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-11-2011, 02:35 PM
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You may want to look at the Dana 44 ales from a wagoneer. It would require some work on the front but there are alot of HD parts for these axles. The wagoneer fronts are 2 inches wider than a series axle which you could fix with different offset with wheels and the rear axle is the same width as a series axle and you could match the front with a couple of spacers. The axles are both passenger side drop. I live near Atlanta and if you like i have set i would love to get rid of. I decided to use Dana 60 axles. There were some photos of a series truck with these axles floating around on the web a few years ago. I saw the truck at the VA rally.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-11-2011, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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280GE Thanks for the offer but I almost have my dana 60 and 70 installed. Someone else on here might need them though. They are getting harder to find with the Jeep Wrangler crowd snatching them up. Although I will say if it had a 4bt dana 44's would probably work fine with upgraded components. And the Chevy dana 60 perch width is two inches wider on each side then a series frame, but I figure on running H1 rims and defender flares.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-11-2011, 09:46 PM
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Well, I wish you luck with the build. I have never built a Land Rover with a 13 speed dump truck gearbox so what the heck do I know?

I still think it's too much for the running gear with the big diesel six (in fact you could probably run a weed whacker engine and it would still work with those gears) but then again it could be the best thing since sliced bread.

Keep us posted on the progress. A few pictures won't hurt either.

Don't worry about the Pirate crowd, post up anyway. They can be immensely helpful when building oddball stuff like this if you don't take offence easily. You don't have to be an XTREEEEEME rock crawler to have a build thread. Most of the regulars are decent guys. But they only really respect three things.

1, Guys that build what they want, how they want, regardless of 'fashion' or the mindless opinion of "bolt-on" Brigade. (go to Dweb if you want that).

2, Sound engineering and fabrication skills.

3, A custom tube buggy made entirely from expensive and/or hard to find heavy duty parts with a (name your favorite vehicle brand) hood and grill! (Ok, we all like that one)

Let us know how it all works out.

"Your only supposed to blow the BLOODY DOORS OFF" Charlie Croaker. The Italian Job. 1969.


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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-12-2011, 02:03 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks man, I like to think I have decent fab skills and the need to install things that were never supposed to fit together. Tube chassis are cool too, but alas, delaware has no rocks unless there imported.
I posted a few years ago on Dweb when my wife had her Disco, It was interesting over there.
I might try posting over at pirate once a few more pirate ppl see me on other boards, or when I actually start fabbing things together when I get past this hurdle. I don't take offence easily, but I'm not really big on bragging either, which is usually a sign of weakness on pirate hah.
I found my rover CD the other day from the Disco that had all the series and defender manuals on it. At least now I have a better dimensioned drawing that I blew up in photoshop and detailed breakdowns of how the beds and tops are assembled.
Im currently looking into the total length of a Dodge NV4500 setup with a 203/205 doubler to see if its shorter than the 13 speed setup. Oddly though part of me is thinking that the 4 doors are the better way to go regardless of what drivetrain I use. Even if I go a bit longer the stock width chevy dana 60 axles under the rovers 31" frame will give me a tight turning circle. Still on the hunt for sheetmetal though, been stalking D90 Source. I really just need to luck out and find a gutted 109 CSW shell.

Once again, thanks
Morgan

Below is a pic of when I started, I had painted it last spring. The other is of the 6BT with the aircompressor and the 13 speed trans.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-12-2011, 09:39 PM
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I used to wheel with a guy that had a full sized GMC Jimmy on a front dana 60 and 14 bolt rear. He made it ok down the tight trails the rest of us did as long as he was careful but in the end he narrowed the body front and rear just so he did not have to worry about rubbing up against trees etc. so much. Kept his axles full width though as it helped his turning radius with big tyres.

Anyway, a longer wheelbase with a wider track can actually be an advantage in some situations off road. Especially if you intend to load up on 'expedition' gear.
In fact it is a fad among the Jeepers is to stretch the wheelbase.

I don't really post on Pirate that much either, mainly because just about every mod I will ever want to consider for my truck has already been done by someone else and I don't like to live on 500 different forums......I don't have the time. Great place for information and 'if only I had the time/money' project build-ups though.

Nice pictures. looking forward to seeing it all come together.

"Your only supposed to blow the BLOODY DOORS OFF" Charlie Croaker. The Italian Job. 1969.


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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-13-2011, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMS3900 View Post
And the Chevy dana 60 perch width is two inches wider on each side then a series frame, but I figure on running H1 rims and defender flares.
Keep looking and find yourself a Salisbury axle that will fit with no mods.

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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-13-2011, 07:49 AM Thread Starter
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I thought about that PT but I can barely find a set of rear doors let alone the front salisbury. The chevys alot wider but spares will be eaiser to source as I have acess to alot of peoples spares from old mud trucks in my area.

Roverandom I am thinking the same thing about the wheel base now. When I wheel trying to get from A to B I wheel smart, with all the recovery equipment I need. If I get high centered I can drag myself over and if I need to turn tighter I can chock and spin. Eventually I am planning ARBs which will help in the turning equasion.

Thanks again guys I will let you know when I find some sheetmetal.

Morgan
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-18-2011, 08:00 PM
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I think it sounds perfect! Hell anything you put in there is probably stronger than the shitty series boxes and toothpick axles! Its your rig and you can do whatever you want. One trick to push the series bulkhead forward is too "extend" the breakfast back to the hood. I used some diamond plate on mine as I needed a few inches to get the LD28 Diesel in there ( I will post some new photos in my post). I also moved the engine back 10 inches in the Disco frame. if you are building it build it how you want. Me personally Im on a VERY tight budget and not a ton of spare time with two kids, so I am running HD rover axles for now. Figure to someday switch to Cruiser axles full floater rear with elockers, but I didnt want to add to the build time so that will be my next 'project' when the funds permit!


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