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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-20-2007, 08:14 AM Thread Starter
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-26-2007, 03:16 AM
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First off I want to say great set of threads and a lot of good info

I do have some comments. First a generic proposal to be added to all of the off roading and driving technique threads. As all these guides are based on personal experience and advise maybe having a disclaimer at the top of the post would be a good idea. Something along the lines of:


Disclaimer – The information contained herein is an account of personal experiences and advise and should be taken as nothing more. Each individual is responsible for their own actions and interpretation of the information.

Each situation is different and it is the responsibility of the individual to assess the situation and act accordingly. Motor sport and off roading can be dangerous so suitable safety precautions should always be undertaken.




I also have some comments about the “mud” thread. Not sure whether they could be an addition or an amendment to the original.

http://www.landroversonly.com/forums...ad.php?t=15538


Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco
When you get to 'MUD' here's what you need to do:-

If the mud can be walked over without breaking through, you’re in with a chance.
This is a new one on me, I guess it all depends on the type of mud you are talking about, some of the worst situations I’ve witnessed have been from driving over what appeared to be dry solid ground only to find it was a thin crust that the weight of the vehicle penetrated to very wet, sticky and boggy conditions just below the surface.

In the midlands and SE of Britain this is often common in the summer, especially after very wet conditions leading to a couple of hot dry days.

If you are unsure or don’t have suitable backup or recovery equipment you do need to thoroughly investigate before driving across any suspicious areas. And yes this does come from experience only a few years back we had a disaster with a tractor and corn cart (trailer full of wheat) all up weight was in the region of 16-18 metric tonnes the ground appeared dry and stable and not more than 15 feet away had been driven on most of the morning, however straying slightly to the right meant the tractor and trailer broke thru the dry top surface and sunk the best part of 18” into boggy mud. It took 3 tractors and 1 Land Rover plus a broken rope and several hours to extract the trailer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco
If you stand on the mud and sink in your boots or ‘welllingtons’ there’s no chance for the vehicle (install chains)!
I have no knowledge of using chains in the mud and I’m uncertain how they could help as there is no hard under surface for them to grip/bite into like on snow or ice which is where they are more commonly used.

I would have thought high wheel speeds and chains could also prove quite dangerous if the chain decided to detach itself from the wheel.

But as I said I have no knowledge of using chains under these conditions, I would however be interested on any further information that could be supplied on using chains in the mud however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco
Basically, “If you can’t walk it – You can’t drive it”, unless your highly modified.

Reducing tyre pressure can help in ‘bottomless’ mud whereas it can make things worse when a hard surface is below the mud
I think this is where a separation needs to be made. Mud is a very generic term and in all honesty the very vast majority of my off roading is on mud, however very little involves mud holes or bog holes.

A muddy hole on the level, surrounded by dry firm ground requires a totally different approach to driving on muddy slippery conditions in a forest, woods, hilly terrain or at a recreational 4x4 site (an old quarry or similar).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco
Check on foot, the depth of mud or water in the bog hole. Use a wading stick. It can be left in the mud to indicate danger spots such as, unseen large rocks, tree trunks, deep holes etc. Walk down one intended wheel track prodding the ground for depth, and then return down the other track.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco
Set up recovery gear before hand. Attach winch cable to a point on the bumper that’s going to be easily accessible.
As this is generic advice then maybe stating something more along the lines of “ensure you recovery line or rope is securely attached to your front recovery point”.

Not everyone has a winch and unless they are using a suitable bumper you shouldn’t be attaching a recovery line to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco
There’s nothing worse than groping around under the mud looking for your winch cable or ‘D’ shackles.
Engage diff lock, and lockers (if fitted).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco
Select appropriate gear, usually 2nd or 3rd high range depending on the depth of the mud. Too low a gear will dig the tires into the mud.
I agree too low a gear will not have sufficient wheel speed, but this is primarily talking in terms of mud holes on a level gradient. If you are driving in very muddy conditions but with other obstacles low range would be essential as high range would be almost impossible to use without stalling (manual transmission) and could also prove very dangerous and lack control of the vehicle.

Here are some examples of where low range would be essential but still be muddy:-

These pictures are all taken from the same site, as you can see some parts of it where very very muddy in a slurry sense, while there where also water holes and steep inclines and descents. The ground was also very rutted, rough and uneven making progress bumpy and difficult, walking speed was as fast you could go on some sections due to the roughness of the terrain, low range was essential 100% of the time:







These are from a different site and again can be very wet and muddy. However again there are deep ruts and holes and the inclines are far too steep to even contemplate using high range with out the risk of rolling, also in the trees there is a distinct lack of space making it very tight, so low speed is advisable:







Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco
If forward travel is a must and the mud is over a long stretch, deflate the tyres to around 20 psi, otherwise, fit chains. Do not fit chains to deflated tyres.
Turning on the windshield wipers before plowing through a big mud puddle does help.
Only comment would be about the chains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco
As you get underway, STEADY POWER and MOMENTUM must not be lost.
Keep wheels in tracks of previous vehicles. If no previous tracks, travel on the crown of the road if possible. If the ruts become too deep, dig away one of the sides to help the wheel to drive out where straddling is a reasonable alternative. If beginning to get stuck, swing the wheel from side to side, this works just as well in reverse.

If the wheels begin to spin, ease off the throttle.
If stuck, try reversing immediately and stay in your own tyre ruts as these will be already somewhat compacted.
If there is an incline ahead, approach with more speed.

If the wheels on one side are higher, the lower wheels will generally have better traction, as they have more weight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco
Descending very steep muddy inclines use:- low range, 2nd gear, chains on (if carried).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco
Ascending steep muddy inclines use:- low range, 1st gear, diff lock on, lockers engaged (if fitted), chains on.
Are the advised gears the correct way round?

I would have thought (and have always been taught) to use as low a gear as possible on descents and as high a gear as possible on inclines.

This does not apply to all situations, as 2nd low may be used on a decent and even 3rd low on an ascent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco
Do not attempt these except in an emergency unless you have aggressive tyres.
Much off roading involves such activities and is in many ways a mainstay of what off roading is, so they are usually a conscious intent and not an emergency. And under the correct conditions and driving styles lesser tyres can work very well.

In addition steep descents can also include the use of modern hill descent control systems such as equipped on the Discovery 3 and the Freelander.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco
Use gentle steering inputs, as a heavy correction can cause the vehicle to slide.

When you have cleared the mud, check if any mud is caked onto the driveshaft or radiator. If there is, clean it off before driving home as it could throw the drive shaft out of balance causing damage or overheat the engine.


Additional information:

Vehicle Preparation

Mud driving can be full of hazards and suitable vehicle preparation can not only allow greater and safer progress but can also prolong vehicle life and durability.

Breathing - Deep wet mud or bogs can be as bad or worse than simple water crossings. Mud also has the knack of getting almost anywhere but does not drain out or run off the same as water. You could simply ensure that all the breather plugs are in while attempting such off roading but you will need to remove them afterwards, for this reason diff, tranny & axle breathers are advisable. Combine this with a suitable snorkel and it will certainly help.




Vehicle Protection – Mud or specifically the water contained within the mud can be very corrosive to Land Rovers. Under body preparation can ensure that this isn’t an issue. It is very advisable to firstly ensure all inner wheel arch spats are attached and located correctly as this will help prevent mud ingress between the inner and outer panels where it will sit and rot through the bodywork and/or chassis components.

In addition treating the whole underside of the vehicle to a protective coating is advised, there are many coatings available either commercially or for self application. Waxoly is popular and readily available (especially in the UK). Ensuring all of the underside of the vehicle has a good even coating of Waxoly will not only protect the vehicle from corrosion but will also make it easier to wash the mud off afterwards as well.





General Maintenance – Ensure that the wipers work, the wiper blades are good and there is plenty of washer fluid in the washer bottle. Being able to see is a great benefit when off roading, having a brush or cleaning cloth/rag in the vehicle may well be advisable as well. Remember mud dries hard and the wipers may not be able to shift dried on mud on the windscreen/shield which can cause either a linkage failure or the fuse to blow. So cleaning the mud off by hand may be the only option.


Engine – If the mud/water is deep then suitable precautions should be taken to ensure the engine electrics and air intakes are protected, petrol (gas) and diesel engines all have different requirements so ensure you bear this in mind during preparation. Radiators and intercoolers will also need to be kept clean as their efficiency will be dramatically reduced otherwise.


Tyres – Suitable tyres will need to be used for the conditions. Depending on taste, vehicle and intent, that may be big wide tyres or smaller narrow tyres. Both are proven to work and to work well. The basic theory follows:

“Thin tyres cut through the top surface and have greater pressure per square inch, while wider tyres spread the weight over a wider area and allow the tyre to float on the surface more.”

It is up to the individual to decide how and why to use which type of setup.

If you are running road biased tyres and want to navigate across a bog then even with modern traction control systems expect to struggle and probably get stuck. Mud terrains or an aggressive off road tyre would generally be advised for most mud situations, however if driven correctly general purpose all terrains can be put to good use in many situations.

Examples of aggressive off road tyres:

Interco TSL Bogger


Interco TSL Super Swamper


Simex Jungle Trekker II


Simex Extreme Trekker


Bronco4x4 Grizzly Claw (remould)



Examples of normal mud terrains:

BFT M/T


Dunlop MT2


Greenway Macho (remould)

Land Rover Discovery (3 Door) 200Tdi 5-speed

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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-26-2007, 03:52 AM
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Vehicle fires....

you should add to install an electrical cutoff on the negative side of the battery, preferably with the switch in the cabin of the truck, but at least on the battery, and this should be turned off immeditatley... fighting the fire with the short still there is almost useless......

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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-26-2007, 06:32 AM
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These are my comments on the threads posted in this section. As previously mentioned, most of the advice is good, my comments only relate to the areas that I strongly disagree with. So let the name calling begin.

SO YOU WANT TO TAKE ROVER FOR A SWIM!

"The simple answer to WADING is avoiding it as much as possible, unless you have lots of disposable cash, or it's an emergency."
It would appear that you have something against water crossing. Anything below the tops of your tyres is unlikely to cause any damage in a properly maintained vehicle. The fear of water appears to be a definite theme through the article.

"As well as fitting the wading plug, the axle breathers need to be extended. These need to be at least engine height, higher if deep water crossing."
Most of the axle breathers are already at engine height. Extension is not usually required. I don’t think that many would get through water higher than the motor, so not sure why it would be required. The breathers are only required when cold water first touches the component involved. The rapid cooling caused by the water causes the air inside the component to contract and sucking in air from outside. It is more important to make sure the breathers are not blocked, otherwise water will be such in past any seals.

"If you intend to do a deep crossing and you don’t have a snorkel, a long length of pipe (flexible at the exhaust end), needs to be fitted over your exhaust."
Water up the exhaust is only an issue if you stop the motor in very deep water. You don’t seem to define what “deep”is, but most of the suggestion would only be valid if above the top of the wheels.

DOOR SEALS
"If a deep water crossing is anticipated, tape up all your doors (except the rear) this should be left open for escape purposes if you suddenly get carried away with the current and water pressure on your drivers side door prevents you from opening it."
I think that this is very much over the top and would be a safety issue. If another section you recommend opening the doors to stop floating away and in this one you recommend taping them up. I have never heard of someone doing this before. Water inside the vehicle is usually only an issue if you stop or are stuck.

"leaving your doors open when entering deep flowing water 1 metre (3 feet) and deeper, is the better alternative. By allowing the vehicle to fill with water it will at least have traction; otherwise it will tend to float."
In another section you state that 1 metre is the top of the bonnet. This also means that it is the top of the dash. How long do you think a vehicle would operate with its entire electrics (inside and out) under water. It is silly to even suggest crossing water over the bonnet unless it is a diesel and a person has a very understanding insurance company.

ELECTRICALS
"If a deep water crossing is contemplated, cover the distributor all over in a thick layer of grease. Fill a plastic bag or glove with grease, the thickest/heaviest you have and cover/seal the distributor.
Pack all connectors on starter motor in as thick a layer of grease as possible, however, you cannot do this with your alternator as it needs to breath."
Many greases conduct electricity, so not a good idea.

FAN
"The engine driven fan will hurl huge quantities of water around the engine bay, therefore, tie up the viscous unit so the fan doesn't rotate;"
Again not a good idea, fan could engage prior to entering water. Also very cold temperatures can also cause fan to engage. In other areas you suggest disconnecting the fan belt, if this is done there is no need to stop fan from turning.

BRAKES
"make sure that your brakes are reasonably cool before entering the water. Cold water on hot rotors will destroy them."
Very unlikely.

RECOVERY GEAR.
"If you have a winch, ensure that you have pulled out sufficient cable and secured it in such a manner, that should you stall in deep water, you can get access to it without have to dive underwater looking for it. If you don’t have a winch, secure your snatch strap or tow rope accordingly. This is assuming you are not on your own."
Nothing wrong with this, but needs to be very secure. Otherwise the water current could drag the cable or strap under the vehicle or anywhere else.

SETTING OFF

WATER LEVEL – ABOVE THE AXLES
"Maintain a steady forward pace, enough to create a nice bow wave. If it appears that a bow wave cannot be maintained due to lost forward motion, immediately switch off the engine if possible before the engine stops."
Do not know why you would do this. Just because you don’t have a bow wave is not a reason to switch off the motor.

"Do not change gears once in the water (Manual transmissions). Water will get into the clutch and although still in gear, the vehicle will not move." "If the selected gear is too high and stalling is inevitable, then a gear change must be attempted."
These statements are contradictory. The first statement states that you will not move if the clutch gets wet and the second states that you can change gears if you have to. Clutches not re-engaging is usually only an issue in mud.

"Be aware that in deep water the vehicle will partially or even totally float. This greatly decreases traction, and may make it difficult, or impossible to climb up a muddy or rocky bank on the far side. You may need to open the door and let water into the vehicle to decrease the buoyancy and allow traction."
If you are at the bank on the other side and attempting to climb out, at least some wheels will be on the ground. Also the bank is usually the shallowest and the least likely spot to be floating. Again if the water is that high that you are floating, the water level inside the car would kill all the electrics and the car would stop anyhow.

"If you have to get across deep water in an emergency, you may increase your chances if you drive across backwards (fit an extension hose over the exhaust pipe, as already mentioned). The wake created tends to keep water out of the engine compartment. Drive as fast as possible and do not lift your foot off the gas, or water could flood the exhaust pipe and stall the engine"
Contradictory statements again. States to put extension onto exhaust and then states to keep the revs up to keep the water out of the exhaust. Can’t see how this method could be better than a shroud over the front. When going backwards the water is going to hit the radiator area at the front of the engine bay and raise the water level in the bay.

"In deep water, your alternator, if it fills with water will stop charging the battery and the dash red charge light will come on. This will go away when you are back on dry ground. The alternator will work again once it dries, but you may find after a period of time that the bearings will need replacing."
Bearings are usually sealed and have grease in them. The risk of damaging the bearings is remote. I regularly hose out my alternator and have not had any bearing problems.

WHEN YOU GET ACROSS

"Drain all the oil from your gearbox."
Why? You don’t know that water got in.

"If you have had water ingress, fill with new oil and run your motor for a short while. Change the oil again. This may need to be done more than two, three or more times."
Changing it twice would be more than adequate. More than that is a bit of an overkill.


SIGNS TO LOOK FOR:-

"Rivers fed by melting snow will be at their lowest and slowest level at daybreak."
This would depend on how far away you are from the snow that was actually melting. It takes some time for the water to travel across ground and into a river that is that large that you are worried about the river height.

"If driving straight across a fast flowing river, the rear end of the vehicle will be pushed faster. Be prepared to turn the front wheels in the direction of the “slide”. If this does not solve the problem, accelerate slightly. If the vehicle continues to turn, facing up stream, put it into reverse and try to reverse up to either bank. Going forward is not an option in such circumstances."
Cant follow the logic in this one. If driving forward causes the back to swing around, driving backwards would force the front to swing around.

WHEN YOU GET ACROSS

"If water gets into the computer (ECU), or other electrical components, strip it down as much as possible, spray with WD40 or similar water displacement spray or use compressed air."
Should not use WD40 on electronic components. Only use electrical contact cleaner, It evaporates with no residual left.


SNOW
Before setting out:-

"Fit chains all round."
Only required on icy roads. Not required for driving on normal snow.

"Avoid compacted tracks, as these will be iced up."
Compacting the snow is the only way to drive in deep snow. You should never spin the wheels on deep snow as it will dig you down. You stop and back up on your own tracks to compact the snow further and then try going forward again. In fresh powder snow, you will have to do this repeatedly to continue going forward.

"It can freeze the engine solid, even if it is running and ruin the motor within minutes."
Have you heard of this ever happening while the motor is running. Even in Siberia they only heat the oil to get the car started, not while it is running.

"Snow freezes up during the night, so after midnight, travel over snow is easier."
Driving on frozen snow is more hazardous that soft snow. We leave our trips until the snow has had a chance to soften.

SIDE SLOPES
"Tyres with an aggressive tread are an advantage."
Most “aggressive” tyres have large lugs which cause poor sideways grip.

"If the hill is wet or muddy, fit chains."
Only diamond pattern chains are likely to give any side grip. Ladder chains would cause less side grip.

"If you are faced with a dangerous situation and forward travel is the only option, find an anchor point uphill (tree, large rock etc), and in front of the vehicle, and winch (if fitted) along with the gear box in neutral. Without the wheels driving there is less risk of sliding sideways."
The gearbox should never be in neutral. Would take too long to engage gears again if the cable snapped. You would put the clutch in if anything.

SAND DRIVING
"Descend sand hills slowly, low range 2nd, straight down and do not use the brakes as this could cause a roll over. If the vehicle noses in, change to low 3rd, with your foot on the brake and accelerator at the same time."
It always depends on the situation, but as a general rule, you should drive down the dune to prevent sand build up in front of the wheels. On the steep longer hills, high 1st is an appropriate gear.

"Never use the brakes except in an extreme emergency."
Again this is a bit of an overstatement. Using brakes is fine, just don’t do hard braking.

"If the tyre pressure is decreased by 25% (25 psi), speed should not exceed 48 km/h (30 m/h). If the tire pressure is decreased by 40% (20 psi), speed should not exceed 19 km/h (12 m/h). Exceeding these speeds at low pressure can cause the tires to leave the rim."
These statements are over cautious in regard to speed. Have travelled for several hundred kilometres in soft sand at 15 PSI at speeds up to 100 KPH without any ill effects. Low pressures will cause a tyre to get hot, it takes some sort of sidewards knock to take the tyre off the rim. Tyre manufacturers have stated that you can take a tubeless tyre down to 16 PSI without the risk of the tyre coming off the rim.

ROCKS
ASCENDING
"If air conditioning is on, turn it off."
Why?

"If the vehicle cannot continue to climb, try turning the steering wheel from side to side;"
This can work in dirt and mud, but has no effect on rocks.

"If your vehicle stalls, select a lower gear; engage the hand brake and release it, as the clutch is slowly released."
This is dangerous. Always secure the vehicle with hand and foot brakes before attempting to change gear.

"If the vehicle (manual transmission) has stalled and forward travel looks unlikely, engage the foot brake, and then reverse gear (low range), apply the hand brake;"
Again, both brakes should be applied before changing gear. Check what you wrote on the hill stall procedure.

"then come off the brakes. Slowly release the hand brake and then turn on the ignition and reverse ‘squarely’ back down. Keep off the brakes and clutch!"
You should warn people that most modern motors are designed to rev up when started, this will give a racing start to the descent. Should keep foot likely on brakes to dampen the initial surge and then use the brake in the same way as you list for descents.

"On solid rock, be aware that the steering will be hard. If a corner or sharp bend needs to be negotiated, switch off your front lockers (if fitted), and if necessary the rear as well."
Turning with lockers is generally only an issue where there is little or no grip. On solid rock, this should not be so much of an issue.

HILL STALL RECOVERY

"The Hill Stall Recovery does not apply to automatic vehicles as they should not stall, just lose forward drive when the hill becomes too steep for the gear selected."
The hill stall technique is to be used when you wish to stop on a hill and reverse back down. There is a version for an auto, the only difference in the technique is that you don’t stall the car and you don’t start it in gear.

DESCENDING.

"If your vehicle jumps out of gear, stop, before putting it back into gear."
Any time that the car is in neutral is very dangerous. Stopping may be difficult on a steep hill. The person is already in the worse position they can get, so putting it back into gear before stopping is not going to make anything worse, but could make things better quicker.

"On steep rocky descents, select neutral, hard on brakes! (winch cable may be needed)."
How more dangerous do you want to get. The car should never be out of gear in such circumstances, people have been killed and seriously injured doing accidently what you suggest to do on purpose.

MUD
When you get to 'MUD' here's what you need to do:-

"If the mud can be walked over without breaking through, you’re in with a chance. If you stand on the mud and sink in your boots or ‘welllingtons’ there’s no chance for the vehicle (install chains)!"
If it is that soft, the worse thing you could do is install chains. You want to attempt to get across with the minimum amount of digging. Chains dig.

"Reducing tyre pressure can help in ‘bottomless’ mud whereas it can make things worse when a hard surface is below the mud"
How can it make it worse?

"Set up recovery gear before hand. Attach winch cable to a point on the bumper that’s going to be easily accessible."
Only ever attach recovery gear to rated recovery points.

"Select appropriate gear, usually 2nd or 3rd high range depending on the depth of the mud. Too low a gear will dig the tires into the mud."
In really soft mud, you do not want you tyres to dig, going slowly in your lowest gear can often aide in this. 2nd and 3rd is for when you want to blast through it. This works OK for short distances.

"If forward travel is a must and the mud is over a long stretch, deflate the tyres to around 20 psi, otherwise, fit chains. Do not fit chains to deflated tyres."
Why not fit chains to deflated tyres. When chains are fitted for use in mud, they should have some looseness in them. This is so that they can clean the mud out of them. Chains should only be used in slippery conditions (something with a firm base) not in soft mud. You do not want to dig in these places. In sand you have stated that 15 PSI is ideal, why are you only recommending 20 PSI in soft mud?

"If beginning to get stuck, swing the wheel from side to side, this works just as well in reverse."
This should only be used where there is a firm base. In other situation you will simply dig yourself further into trouble.

"If the wheels begin to spin, ease off the throttle."
This only applies to soft mud with no base. In most mud, spinning the wheels (not excessively) will help clear the mud from the tread and help dig to a firmer/drier surface.

"Descending very steep muddy inclines use:- low range, 2nd gear, chains on (if carried)."
Why not low first?

"Ascending steep muddy inclines use:- low range, 1st gear, diff lock on, lockers engaged (if fitted), chains on. Do not attempt these except in an emergency unless you have aggressive tyres."
Would need a higher gear than first to gain momentum, clear treads, and to dig to harder surface.

ASCENDING
FIRM GROUND - STEEP

"Normal tire pressure is okay."
Normal tyre pressure is not OK. Should always deflate tyres when off-road. If it is steep, you need as much grip as you can get.

SLIPPERY or LOOSE GROUND - STEEP
"More momentum."
Need to make sure that you don’t have too much power on as you could shock load the drive-train if it is a loose surface.

"Start in 2nd low to get moving, then double clutch (manual transmissions only) into the higher gears 3rd & 4th low."
As mentioned before, having a vehicle out of gear on a hill is one of the most dangerous situations off-road. If you have to change gears, make it happen as quickly as possible. With any synchro box, there is little or no benefit in double clutching. Double clutching slows down you gear change and increases the risk of stuffing up the change.

"Attaching chains may be required. Rear wheels if only one set is carried."
Chains should only be used where you want to dig.

"If the vehicle begins to slide backwards, immediately shift into reverse"
You are already in a bad situation with too much to think about, changing gears is highly likely to make the situation worse. Stay in a forward gear and keep the wheels turning quickly. There is a good chance that you will dig enough to stop the vehicle, at the very least you will be doing the maximum you can to slow your descent.


SLIPPERY – VERY STEEP

"Attach chains. Rear wheels if only one set is carried."
Chains destroy 4WD tracks. Also because of the difficulty in fitting and removing them, people tend to leave them on and destroy more track. Only ever use chains in an emergency.

"There can be a problem with lockers in that a locked front end can kick the vehicle to one side or other when traveling uphill. This is because the weight is on the rear end, and the front end is light. If the locked front wheels catch the edge of a ledge, or hit a patch of loose dirt, they can kick the vehicle sideways. When using lockers to get up a difficult hill, start out with the rear lockers engaged only. Once on the hill and the front wheels are biting well, engage the front lockers."
Never had this happen to me. You want to start the hill in the set-up you believe you need to make the hill. You need to make sure that your wheels are not spinning before engaging the locker and the only reason to engage it would be that your wheels are spinning. This would mean that you would have to stop to engage and you have then wrecked your chances of making it.

DESCENDING
DESCENDING – ROCKY – STEEP

"Ensure that your tyres are up to the task. Aggressive treads do best."
Less aggressive treads often do best on rocks.

DESCENDING – MUDDY-STEEP

"If the ruts are too deep, try running with just one set of tires in a rut, if the trail is wide enough."
This is the quickest and most common way of rolling a car. If you only have one wheel in the ruts, it means that the other wheel is on the side of the track. With muddy hills, the depth of the track and ruts compared to the side of the track can change quickly. It is difficult to get out of the rut once you are in. This can mean that the wheel in the rut gets too low compared to the side of the track and the car goes over.

DESCENDING – EXTREME DESCENTS

"Sometimes a hill is so steep that you will begin sliding down and low gear is too low. The tyres begin sliding because they are not rotating fast enough to keep traction and control. In this case, it is best to shift into 2nd or 3rd low, depress the clutch pedal (if manual transmission), and ride the brake. If you get into trouble, you can momentarily ease out the clutch and use power to straighten out. You need a good touch on the brakes, you don’t want to start a skid; just enough to slow down."
This advice is scary stuff, it goes against everything you will be taught in any 4WD course. It is an accident waiting to happen.

BOG HOLES

"Steady power and momentum must not be lost. If you begin to get stuck, swing the steering wheel from side to side."
"If the wheels spin, ease off the throttle."
These two points are contradictory. One states to spin the wheels and swing them from side to side, the other states not to spin the wheels. You spin wheels when you think digging will getting you out and don’t spin wheels where digging will get you further into trouble.

RECOVERY FROM A BOG HOLE

"When bogged, it is possible to lift the rear end (HiLift Jack, Air Bag Jack etc), and slew the vehicle sideways. This can result in a better position for grip. If forward movement looks unlikely, reverse out."
Using a highlift jack in mud is impractical and dangerous. They will sink in mud and not lift the car. They are unstable and dangerous items to use in the best of places, in mud you are asking for trouble.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-28-2007, 02:20 PM
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Nice addition 300bhp/ton. Meanwhile, I need to edit the off-road threads to be more "user friendly".

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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-28-2007, 07:22 PM Thread Starter
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Great posts! I hopefully will get some time to add them tomorrow.

If you are submitting a new topic [such as the recovery points], you can just click "New Thread" in this section and it will allow you to create a thread.. the thread will then go hidden under 'moderation' until we get a chance to review it and put it live.


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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-29-2007, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmuller
If you are submitting a new topic [such as the recovery points], you can just click "New Thread" in this section and it will allow you to create a thread.. the thread will then go hidden under 'moderation' until we get a chance to review it and put it live.
Cool I'll do that

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RECOVERY POINTS,

300BHP. I am not sure whether you are suggesting to use the actual tow ball as a recovery point. This is generally a no no as the recovery rope can slip off.

Are the Jate Rings rated. Not sure about using a single bolt as a recovery point. Also not sure whether those mountings weldedon the chasis are designed for the stress of recovery.

But your article shows people that there is no excuse for not having proper recovery points.
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 03:28 AM
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Here most tow bars have a square hitch receiver design. That is the actual bit of metal that the tow ball goes on fits into a square hole and a pin honds it in place (Pictures below). The end of the snatch straps we use will fit into those receivers (when the tow point is not in there) and the pin holds the strap in there. This has proved to be a good recovery point. They also make devices that fit into these holes which are recovery points (pictires also below). You can also remove the tow ball from your tow bar and fit a shackle through it.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p76rangie
RECOVERY POINTS,

300BHP. I am not sure whether you are suggesting to use the actual tow ball as a recovery point. This is generally a no no as the recovery rope can slip off.
The tow ball is actually the preferred recovery point for ALRC events who's regs conform to the MSA (Motorsport Association) who are the British representative of the FIA.

The ball itself actually creates a lip so the rope would have to go backwards to get past it, much the same as a conventional hook.

The advantage over hooks is they can be used for towing a trailer/caravan and they also mount with 4 bolts where most hooks only use 2.

However I personally don't disagree with you, which is why I don't actually use tow balls and opt for the NATO style pintle as it physically closes over the top of the rope.

In 20 years of watching/competing in events though I've never seen a rope slip off a tow ball. However some competitors mount them so the ball is facing the vehicle, this offer a top, bottom and side enclosure of the rope.

It's a bit hard to see, but on the front bumper infront of the number plate, see a tow ball mounted and facing the radiator:


Quote:
Originally Posted by p76rangie
Are the Jate Rings rated. Not sure about using a single bolt as a recovery point. Also not sure whether those mountings weldedon the chasis are designed for the stress of recovery.
For RTV events this is one of the recommended options, personally I see them as only being secondary recovery points. But for a "normal" recovery they should be more than strong enough. A high speed snath recovery is a different matter entirly though.

I will see if I can seek some more technical info from the ALRC scruitineers commitee on this matter.

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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 03:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p76rangie
Here most tow bars have a square hitch receiver design. That is the actual bit of metal that the tow ball goes on fits into a square hole and a pin honds it in place (Pictures below). The end of the snatch straps we use will fit into those receivers (when the tow point is not in there) and the pin holds the strap in there. This has proved to be a good recovery point. They also make devices that fit into these holes which are recovery points (pictires also below). You can also remove the tow ball from your tow bar and fit a shackle through it.
Some good info, maybe one of the mods can add it to the thread.

I'm afraid my knowledge of such recovery points is limited as that hitch stlye isn't actually legal in the UK so you simply don't see them at all, for sale or on vehicles.

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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 05:50 AM
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Sorry, have to disagree about the tow ball. Read the following:

Vehicle snatch straps a potential killer
Fair Trading Minister Margaret Keech today warned Queenslanders to take precautions this Easter when using snatch straps for bogged off-road vehicles.

Mrs Keech said the incorrect use of snatch straps could result in serious injury, even death.

"Snatch straps, or recovery straps, are designed to stretch and recoil when pulling vehicles out of a bogged situation, but they can be dangerous if used incorrectly or in unsafe conditions," she said.

"The deaths of two Queenslanders in 2003 and 2005 during attempts to recover bogged vehicles highlight the potential hazards of using elasticised snatch straps.

"In one case a snatch strap catapulted a dislodged towing hook, striking the victim in the stomach.

"The other death occurred when a tow ball was sheared off during the recovery process and struck a man in the head."

To ensure the safe usage of snatch straps, four-wheel drive enthusiasts should always consider the following:

Make sure the loading capacity of the strap is suitable for the vehicle and its bogged situation.
Always follow the manufacturer's instructions on strap usage and maintenance. Many 4WD vehicles have factory-fitted recovery hooks at the front and rear of the vehicle. Users should locate these points before setting off.
In all other cases only connect the strap securely to a properly-rated recovery hook that is properly bolted to the chassis of the vehicle.
It is dangerous to attached a snatch strap to a vehicle's bumpers, bull bar, axles, suspension, steering rods, or a trailer hitch ball.
NEVER connect a snatch strap to a conventional tow bar, tow ball or tie down points. They are not designed to withstand the severe forces created by snatch straps.
Always use an 'air brake' to restrict rebound forces should the snatch strap break or towing components dislodge. A heavy blanket or bag draped over the strap will also act as an effective brake.
Always ensure bystanders take cover behind a solid object that is far away from the recovery effort.
Drive slowly away from the bogged vehicle to minimise damage to the strap, the vehicles and injuries to bystanders if something goes wrong. A snatch strap is not a towing device.
Remember that the stretching properties of snatch straps are significantly reduced when the strap is saturated with water or other fluid.
When not in use, store and protect the snatch strap from sharp edges or abrasion. Dirt or sand in snatch straps can cause damage and reduce effectiveness. Soak in clean water until grit is removed and dry out thoroughly before storing or re-use.
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 06:16 AM
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I'm not disagreeing with you, but as these are "recommended" and preferred by the governing body in the UK I'm not in a position to disagree.

I guess if you wanted you could email the MSA and ALRC and see if they will change their policy.

Besides the two cases you highlight, one was using a HOOK not a tow ball. The other says the tow ball was sheared off. Neither instance is a result to the rope slipping off the recovery point as highlighted in your ealier post.

Here are some pics from the 2006 ALRC event, most of these are the CCV trial, the most rigorous and dangerous, all have had to pass strict ALRC strutineering as dictated by the MSA and FIA. Note how many have tow balls as recvoery points:







This is the multiple UK champion:



Quote:
Originally Posted by ALRC
B.19. RECOVERY POINTS.
B.19.1. Adequate front and rear recovery attachments must be provided for recovery purposes in all events. Bumpers, tie-down rings, lifting rings or Range Rover / Discovery "tow fittings" are not adequate. Factory specification (or better) trailer hitches are acceptable. If a tow-ball is fitted, welding alone is insufficient - high tensile nuts and bolts must be used for attachment. If the recovery point is attached to a bumper, the bumper must be attached to the chassis with high tensile nuts and bolts. A clevis and pin fitting or pair of Land Rover chassis-shackles (not spring shackles) are recommended.
http://www.alrc.co.uk/new%20regulations/sectionb.htm

There is more info in the MSA Blue Book and the ALRC Book, but these are not on the web.

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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 06:33 AM
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These might also be worth a read:

This is a presentation on recoveries
http://www.juststraps.com.au/pdf/4x4%20Safety.pdf

This is a government manual on 4WD techniques and operation.
http://www.ema.gov.au/agd/EMA/rwpattach.nsf/VAP/(A80860EC13A61F5BA8C1121176F6CC3C)~ASM_4WDVehicleO ps+Man.pdf/$file/ASM_4WDVehicleOps+Man.pdf

In regard to things slipping off tow balls, a friend recently totaled his 110 when the snatch strap came off the tow ball. He had broken a front CV and was being recovered up a hill. The strap slipped off the tow ball, by the time he realised what was happening, the 110 had already started going backwards down the hill. He could not regain control before the back drivers side hit a tree and flipped the car on its side. Personally I would walk quickly away if I saw someone using a tow ball.
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 06:56 AM
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Our rules for off-road events state:

MANUAL OF FWD MOTOR SPORT VEHICLE SPECIFICATIONS
Version 7.0 20-Jan-2007 21
.
4.1.5 RECOVERY POINTS
Rated recovery points shall be mounted at the front and rear of the vehicle chassis with at least two of 12mm or four of 10mm grade 5 or M8.8 bolts. Recovery points shall be painted red and shall be load rated at least twice the vehicle mass. Eyebolts are not considered as satisfactory recovery points.
Monocoque frame vehicles shall have each recovery point mounted such that the load is applied evenly to the vehicle frame, or have recovery points linked to achieve even load application.
Roof racks/bars where fitted shall be securely fastened. Loads carried on roof racks/bars shall not exceed 70kgs, including the mass of the rack, and no fuel or gas shall be carried thereon.
6. SCRUTINEERING
6.1 GENERAL COMMENTS:
6.1.3 SAFETY
Recovery points:
Recovery points constructed as a plate and a loop of steel welded to it, as fitted to Nissan and Mitsubishi vehicles, and the eyes on commercial bullbars, unless they are triple laminated and fully welded, are not permitted. Tie down points including those on monocoque body vehicles will not be accepted.
Rated towbars will be accepted as recovery points, however towballs shall not be used for connecting recovery equipment.
Recovery points should be suitably over engineered. The rules call for recovery points to be rated at twice the vehicle mass. While recovery points may not be test loaded scrutineers will be
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