To anyone who has a personal website in the UK. If it is open for public viewing it is possible that anti-offroad groups may access and download info/pics from your site, these can then be "editored" and used to bring both you and your passtime into disripute. We know that this has happened to the SOTOR site which has now changed its security setting to private. You have been warned.
Beware
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You got it mate, I don't know what the attitude to 4x4's is stateside but over here it's getting s**t. We pollute the environment, take up too much room, intimidate other road users, drive aggressively, and we're definitely not "pc". The Lord Mayor of London wanted to make 4x4's pay more congestion charges than 4x2's, might have been better if we'd lost the bloody war. :buttrock:
Adam you astound me, this is not the oz we are all led to believe in. You're supposed to be hard drinking, all fighting, crocodile killing, broad shouldered MEN, who only let the sheelah out once a month. Don't tell me it's all going down the Swanney over there as well. Strewth, whats it all coming to blue?
Joined
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238 Posts
In Aus
Fair crack of the whip, there Barryj. It's not that bad in Aus it's just the North Shore Sydney Socker Mums with their sever lack of driving skills in there "mums taxi" that are ruining it for all of us here. The only advantage of these people buying 4x4's is that when it coimes to buying a second hand one there are heaps to choose with s*^t loads of accesories, that have never been used and quite a few have only been as far off road as the unsealed carpark next to the beach.
The amount of trails that are being closed around Aus because of a missinformed public is amazing. A couple of years ago fires raged through outer areas of Sydney, with many of the areas un accesable to fire trucks because the trails had not been maintained by Parks and Wildlife. The Rural Fire service sent a 4x4 club a letter of thanks because of the maintanance the club did on trails it regularly drove, these trails were and still are only able to be used buy clubs. I am not saying that all people are saints when they head out bush but there is no reason to punish the many because of the actions of a few. I have been in areas only accesable by foot and there has been rubish left behind by other hikers but these greenie types look the other way and say it's is only a small few that don't carry out what they carry in, I can also say that it's even fewer that carry out what other people carry in and leave behind.
Adam
Fair crack of the whip, there Barryj. It's not that bad in Aus it's just the North Shore Sydney Socker Mums with their sever lack of driving skills in there "mums taxi" that are ruining it for all of us here. The only advantage of these people buying 4x4's is that when it coimes to buying a second hand one there are heaps to choose with s*^t loads of accesories, that have never been used and quite a few have only been as far off road as the unsealed carpark next to the beach.
The amount of trails that are being closed around Aus because of a missinformed public is amazing. A couple of years ago fires raged through outer areas of Sydney, with many of the areas un accesable to fire trucks because the trails had not been maintained by Parks and Wildlife. The Rural Fire service sent a 4x4 club a letter of thanks because of the maintanance the club did on trails it regularly drove, these trails were and still are only able to be used buy clubs. I am not saying that all people are saints when they head out bush but there is no reason to punish the many because of the actions of a few. I have been in areas only accesable by foot and there has been rubish left behind by other hikers but these greenie types look the other way and say it's is only a small few that don't carry out what they carry in, I can also say that it's even fewer that carry out what other people carry in and leave behind.
Adam
Sounds like you got the same probs we have. 90% of the 4x4's here are second cars used for the school run, it's a known fact that if you buy a second hand LR product that the hi-lo lever will be seized up. We all know that driving anything off road will cause a certain amount of damage, but when I get blamed for leaving 18 inch deep ruts that are 8 feet apart I tend to get a bit miffed. The good old farmer doesn't run around in a David Brown tractor anymore, he uses a bloody huge 4x4 John Deere that would put a US monster truck to shame. Like in Oz we have groups of clubs who repair Rights of Way when it should be the local council, they say they can't afford, still manage to claim their expenses though and put up stupid statues of past Priministers who made a b******s of everthing. The we have the anti's who believe that they and only they should have access to our countryside, of course they don't cause any damage as they hover just above the ground, whichever planet they came from I wish they would p*** off back. So I suppose we'd better go out and enjoy while we can. :dunno:
Hi all
The problem here in the UK is that the country is flooded with SUV's which people use to get the kids to school and the minority who own real offroaders get grouped with them and tared with the same brush.
I think that there is no need for SUV's at all, people think they are in a big tough offroader with some big status symbol attached to it when in reality they are in a large tin can with zero offroad ability.
Off course we then have our own problems in that many authorities want to outlaw vehicular access into the countryside because it is " antisocial " or we are turning the countryside into one big ploughed up field. Ok there will always be a small number of people who will do this but then target them & not the rest of us.
Anyway I would rather the countryside was all ploughed up than the goverments idea of just concreting over the south east to hide all traces of green & tree's !
The problem here in the UK is that the country is flooded with SUV's which people use to get the kids to school and the minority who own real offroaders get grouped with them and tared with the same brush.
I think that there is no need for SUV's at all, people think they are in a big tough offroader with some big status symbol attached to it when in reality they are in a large tin can with zero offroad ability.
Off course we then have our own problems in that many authorities want to outlaw vehicular access into the countryside because it is " antisocial " or we are turning the countryside into one big ploughed up field. Ok there will always be a small number of people who will do this but then target them & not the rest of us.
Anyway I would rather the countryside was all ploughed up than the goverments idea of just concreting over the south east to hide all traces of green & tree's !
:lol:130CC said:
I couldn't have said it better myself. As an avid backpacker and off-road enthusiast, I see more trash on the "foot only" trails than I do on the 4x4 trails. Yet it's the damn peds that are claiming 4x4/off roaders ruin the environment for everyone else. I'm not saying ALL hikers litter, or that all 4x4 drivers ars saints either, but I think it's time 4x4 guys go on the offensive with photos of trash on hiking trails to show they are just as bad if not worse. Better yet, dump the trash you pickup on the trails at the office of local "ped right of way" group. Invite the local media along for a nice photo opportunity.
I always bring along extra trash bags and collect what I find along the trail (4x4 or foot). Of course it's always worse around campsites. But I always try to leave a trail better than I found it. On a recent trip through Death Valley, I packed out 4 large trash bags worth of refuse. 1 bag's worth came from cleaning up around the campsite, the other 3 bags came from hiking trails. :complain:
Guys this problem seem to be global!!
I am a land owner & 4x4 driver!
The problems that I face does not so much come from other 4x4 owners, (I managed to get them sorted out!!) but from Bikers and more spesific Quad bikes.
The damn things make a noise like you cant believe, and the riders have no respect for either property or nature. It is also useless to try and catch a Quad with my LR SIII. But Ill sort them one day!!! (Sure there may be good ones, but I would first like to meet them before ill admit to that)
In as far as other 4x4's go, I now have a small group of "selected" guys that may come on my farm. They are required to first report to me and then can go ahead and play. I have known these guys for a while now, and they are also the type that would stop to pick up trash, Even if it is not their's.
In as far as Taxes go, Each province in South Africa runs its own Tax structure. Genarally it cost about 8-12% more to Register a 4x4 that a 2x4 of the same weight and Engine size. Still acceptable. No official moves for banning 4x4, bullbars ect has seen the light here yet.
I am a land owner & 4x4 driver!
The problems that I face does not so much come from other 4x4 owners, (I managed to get them sorted out!!) but from Bikers and more spesific Quad bikes.
The damn things make a noise like you cant believe, and the riders have no respect for either property or nature. It is also useless to try and catch a Quad with my LR SIII. But Ill sort them one day!!! (Sure there may be good ones, but I would first like to meet them before ill admit to that)
In as far as other 4x4's go, I now have a small group of "selected" guys that may come on my farm. They are required to first report to me and then can go ahead and play. I have known these guys for a while now, and they are also the type that would stop to pick up trash, Even if it is not their's.
In as far as Taxes go, Each province in South Africa runs its own Tax structure. Genarally it cost about 8-12% more to Register a 4x4 that a 2x4 of the same weight and Engine size. Still acceptable. No official moves for banning 4x4, bullbars ect has seen the light here yet.
The thing that get's me is that I'm continually being told that my Land Rover takes up too much road space, guzzles too much fuel, pollutes the enviroment and intimidates other road users.
Well, let's deal with this point by point:
1) '4x4s take up too much space!'- An 88-inch SIII has about the same width/length dimensions of a Rover 200. The new so-called MINI has a longer wheel-base than a Defender 90 (MINI= 94", 90= 92.9"). In a shorter space, a Defender can carry many more people than a MINI.
2) '4x4s use too much fuel!'- My 2.25 diesel will do 28 mpg without trying. If I conciously drive with economy in mind I can get it up to 32 mpg (but won't go anywhere fast). That's not brilliant, but there are plenty of 2WD cars that do much worse than that- especially in Chelsea.
3) '4x4s pollute the enviroment!'- every car does, and yes, in emissions terms a 20-year old Landy will pollute more. But a Td5 has to meet the same Euro III regulations that any other car has to. PLUS, keeping a Landy on the go for 20 years saves much more raw materials and emissions than buying some plasticy 'in-built obsolesence' saloon car that'll need replacing after 5 years.
I've seen plenty of Peugot taxis and Ford Transits belching out clouds of un-burnt diesel. Most Land Rovers I've seen are in pretty good engine condition. because they are maintained by enthusiasts.
4)'4x4s are scary!' - I'll tell you what's scary- being cut up at the traffic lights by some lowered, alloy-wheeled, neon-lighted, spoiler-festooned Vauxhall Nova 1-litre. I'll tell you what's scary- being tailgated up the motorway by a white Transit. I'll tell you what's scary- suddenly finding a BMW M3 in front of you because it didn't indicate (the driver knew where he was going, so why did he need to indicate?'). Sorry to resort to crude stereotypes, but it makes the point.
5) BONUS FEATURE- HOW DO YOU DEFINE A 4X4? Is a 4x4 Fiat Panda unsuitable for city use? Does the fact that in most respects a Freelander is no worse than any other 2-litre estate car?
Sorry to rant, but these arguments are so shallow! Do these people think about these at all before they go spouting them to the national press?
RANT RATIO DISENGAGED AT 19:00 hrs.
Jack
Well, let's deal with this point by point:
1) '4x4s take up too much space!'- An 88-inch SIII has about the same width/length dimensions of a Rover 200. The new so-called MINI has a longer wheel-base than a Defender 90 (MINI= 94", 90= 92.9"). In a shorter space, a Defender can carry many more people than a MINI.
2) '4x4s use too much fuel!'- My 2.25 diesel will do 28 mpg without trying. If I conciously drive with economy in mind I can get it up to 32 mpg (but won't go anywhere fast). That's not brilliant, but there are plenty of 2WD cars that do much worse than that- especially in Chelsea.
3) '4x4s pollute the enviroment!'- every car does, and yes, in emissions terms a 20-year old Landy will pollute more. But a Td5 has to meet the same Euro III regulations that any other car has to. PLUS, keeping a Landy on the go for 20 years saves much more raw materials and emissions than buying some plasticy 'in-built obsolesence' saloon car that'll need replacing after 5 years.
I've seen plenty of Peugot taxis and Ford Transits belching out clouds of un-burnt diesel. Most Land Rovers I've seen are in pretty good engine condition. because they are maintained by enthusiasts.
4)'4x4s are scary!' - I'll tell you what's scary- being cut up at the traffic lights by some lowered, alloy-wheeled, neon-lighted, spoiler-festooned Vauxhall Nova 1-litre. I'll tell you what's scary- being tailgated up the motorway by a white Transit. I'll tell you what's scary- suddenly finding a BMW M3 in front of you because it didn't indicate (the driver knew where he was going, so why did he need to indicate?'). Sorry to resort to crude stereotypes, but it makes the point.
5) BONUS FEATURE- HOW DO YOU DEFINE A 4X4? Is a 4x4 Fiat Panda unsuitable for city use? Does the fact that in most respects a Freelander is no worse than any other 2-litre estate car?
Sorry to rant, but these arguments are so shallow! Do these people think about these at all before they go spouting them to the national press?
RANT RATIO DISENGAGED AT 19:00 hrs.
Jack
Moeras, I lived in South Africa for over 20 years and do have family there too, including a 15 year old son. So, my comments are not from a "distant observer".Moeras said:
I fly back twice a year to visit the family and often engage in off roading on either a big bore 4-stroke two wheeler or on my son's Banshee. (Quad)
My son has a few quads, sure they are noisy, especially the two strokes.
He restricts his riding to the Benoni mindeump areas which are not too close to any residential areas. In fact, the only 4x4s and "bakkies" (South African name for any pick up vehicle) are the ones carrying or towing the bikes and quads
We also do a route from Benoni through to Hiedelberg via Brakpan. This route takes us through some privately owned land and even a few squatter camps.
I've have done this trip many a time and have never encountered an angry land owner. I have been stoned by squatters though, solely for the reason of being in the area. Fortunately body armour and acceleration saved our glow in the dark butts from the angry landless masses.
Yes, my son and I are considerare quad bikers and there are many of us out there. You said you haven't come across any "considerate quad bikers"
I can explain the reason for this: Most of them restrict their activities to the mine dumps where they do not annoy anyone at all or enter privately owned land without permission.
One thing you failed to mention to our Global members is the fact that all 4x4/4x2, 2 wheelers and quads are now banned from most if not all the beaches on the South African coastline.
South Africa offers all off roaders many places to drive or ride, however in the UK we are a lot more restricted regarding the choice of areas.
Another big difference is the lack of "organised events" in South Africa, whereas organised off road events are fairly common in the UK and these events are extremely well planned and an absolute pleasure to attend.
It's ironic that I can get more enjoyment out of a Land Rover in the UK than I ever could out of my more than capable (Japanese) 4x4 I owned when I lived over there.
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