[World Traveller]

I have read practically every post on coolant loss and misfire and I am baffled by my own experience.

2002 D2, about 175,000 miles. Vehicle history:
- Replaced head gaskets two years ago; resurfaced and pressure tested heads. Replaced all spark plugs, wires, coil packs. It ran fine for over a year.
- Massive leak of coolant into sump last year; overhauled all engine front end components with new, including: timing cover, chain, sprockets, oil pump, water pump, thermostat.

Recent history: Slow coolant leak over past four months accompanied by misfire at start up for about 60 seconds - always showing cylinder #4 misfire. Replaced coolant reservoir bottle, cap, embrittled tubes from throttle body and from radiator top to reservoir.

Coolant leak stabilized to about one quart every 300 miles. Misfire consistent; practically every day showing cylinder #4 misfire...clear it, it comes back next day.

My diagnostics have included the following:
- Interchanged #4 and #6 spark plugs - misfire stayed with #4
- monitored engine oil - no sign of coolant in sump
- no sign of smoking in exhaust
- no coolant drips on garage floor
- engine is dry - looked especially for coolant leak at water pump and found none.
- no smell of coolant around vehicle
- pressure tested all cylinders:
#1 167.0
#3 161.0
#5 163.0
#7 164.0
#2 168.5
#4 179.0
#6 156.0
#8 160.6

The outlier is #4 , which makes me think that there is moisture in #4 , possibly coolant, giving better seal at piston rings and a higher cylinder pressure reading. I cannot imagine how coolant is getting into #4 , since it is an inside cylinder and far from the coolant passages feeding the heads from the block.

I am wracking my brains but can't come up with a definitive direction for what to do next. The machine is running superbly, very smooth and powerful after the first 60 seconds with rough running at startup.

Any opinions?

 

[gurunutkins]

Possibly you have a head gasket leak from one of the block and head coolant passages into #4 that is not going into the oil?
have you tested the coolant for the presence of exhaust chemicals in the water? there are several exhaust gas test kits available.
https://www.google.com/#q=exhaust+gas+in+coolant+tester&revid=1339587802
cheers
Barri

 

[Bosnian Discovery]

Either the HG failed (which isn't uncommon after a replacement), or you have a cracked block/slipped liner. The coolant in sump issue may have caused an overheat that warped the heads enough to cause the leak. You'll have to pull the heads to inspect what exactly is going on. If it does end up being a bad gasket, I'd recommend you use the ARP head studs instead of the TTY bolts to hold the heads down - they're (relatively) cheap insurance and cut down on future HG failures.

 

[World Traveller]

Barri,

I haven't tested for coolant in exhaust gases or exhaust gases in coolant yet but those are probably a good next step in tracking this problem down.

I was hoping that the good compression test result might eliminate head gasket or cracked block leaks and had started wondering about electrical (coil) or fuel (injector) issues. But I am now thinking that the coolant loss is the thing to follow and likely will lead to the cause of the misfire.

So on to those tests when I have time later this month.

Thanks,

h...

 

[World Traveller]

Bosnian,

Ultimately, I guess I will be pulling at least the head on the passenger side bank. If it is a just a bad gasket or warped head, I will be thankful and will go with the ARP head studs and TTY bolts as you recommend.

If it is a cracked block or slipped liner, that will be a heart breaker!

I am wondering if I should wait until something gets worse before I tackle this job. I can keep adding coolant for a long while so long as the car drives as well as it is doing now. Seems a pity to go in and do major surgery while it is running so well.

Any opinions on whether I might be risking additional damage if I just keep an eye on the coolant level and keep on trucking'?

h...

 

[redtruck12]

I have read practically every post on coolant loss and misfire and I am baffled by my own experience.

2002 D2, about 175,000 miles. Vehicle history:
Recent history: Slow coolant leak over past four months accompanied by misfire at start up for about 60 seconds - always showing cylinder [URL=http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=4]#4 [/URL] misfire. Replaced coolant reservoir bottle, cap, embrittled tubes from throttle body and from radiator top to reservoir.

Coolant leak stabilized to about one quart every 300 miles. Misfire consistent; practically every day showing cylinder [URL=http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=4]#4 [/URL] misfire...clear it, it comes back next day.

My diagnostics have included the following:
- Interchanged [URL=http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=4]#4 [/URL] and #6 spark plugs - misfire stayed with [URL=http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=4]#4 [/URL]
- monitored engine oil - no sign of coolant in sump
- no sign of smoking in exhaust
- no coolant drips on garage floor
- engine is dry - looked especially for coolant leak at water pump and found none.
- no smell of coolant around vehicle
- pressure tested all cylinders:
since it is an inside cylinder and far from the coolant passages feeding the heads from the block.

I am wracking my brains but can't come up with a definitive direction for what to do next. The machine is running superbly, very smooth and powerful after the first 60 seconds with rough running at startup.

Any opinions?

My 2002 has been doing exactly the same thing, I have pulled the heads,no definite gasket fault, cylinder #4 is super clean (steam cleaned) sent the heads out to a machine shop I trust, asked them to check them out , no warp pressure tested good.
Problem is definitely in the block! Pulled the remainder of the engine out yesterday and cleaned it up to inspect it with the expectation that it will require flanged liners (top hat liners). I have been doing research and from all I have been able to decide on looks like Turner Engineering in the U.K. Make the best repair liners, being ductile Iorn flanged liners with a bottom O ring.
Today taking a closer look with the block out and on an engine stand, I found definite cracks in the #4 and #3 cylinder , looks like top to bottom of the liner,

I have read lots about leaks, block porosity and cracks off the head bolt holes and slipped liners but have not seen much on the liners actually cracking.
I will share pictures as soon as I get some and also will share my progress.
I ordered 8 flanged cylinder liners from Turner Engineering tonight
Engine goes to the machine shop tomorrow for full tear down and liner removal.
Wish me luck:wink

 

[gurunutkins]

good luck
pictures please

 

[helievacpilot]

My guess is going to be a cracked block. Sorry. Also, if it is just heads and/or head gaskets, just use TTY bolts. Research posts by guys that actually work on these things for a living and they all say don't use studs. If you have a high compression race engine, then sure. Our engines, not so much.

 

[redtruck12]

My engine guy "Engine Technology" here in Cambridge Ontario, doubts what I pointed out is a crack, says that if it was to crack it is very unlikely it would be a straight line crack. Will know more when the liners come out (next couple days).

 

[Chubbs878]

Keep the thread updated please!

 

[redtruck12]

Picture of one of the suspected cracks noticed in #4 ,#1 and#2

 

[helievacpilot]

Picture of one of the suspected cracks noticed in #4 ,#1 and#2

Almost looks like damage from the piston/rings? Maybe a broken ring?

 

[gurunutkins]

helievacpilot x 2
looks far too straight to be a crack - looks like ring score or possibly carbon damage - can you feel it with a fingernail?

 

[redtruck12]

Yes can feel it with a fingernail, looks to travel too high up to be a ring scratch. Will know more this week when the sleeves come out

 

[helievacpilot]

Yes can feel it with a fingernail, looks to travel too high up to be a ring scratch. Will know more this week when the sleeves come out

x2 on the possible carbon damage, especially since it's in multiple cylinders. It also looks like quite a bit of gunk on the top of the piston in that area.

 

[redtruck12]

UPDATE on engine work.
Block has been stripped down no broken rings BUT does not look to be a crack.
Parts including the Darton flanged cylinder sleeves with bottom O Ring arrived from Turner Engineering earlier this week.
As per my engine Guru and the recommendations of Turner, old sleeves are bored out NOT pulled or pressed out. #4 which was my problem cylinder was noticeably out of round at near the bottom of the bore . Strange?
At last check, all liners had been bored out. Next step closer inspection under the removed liner, oversize bore to accommodate the interference fit size of the replacement liners.
Crank polished well and staying at standard journal size, will get all new bearings, crank, cam and rods, timing chain and gears, heads freshened up,

 

[redtruck12]

Picture2

 

[redtruck12]

Picture3

 

[redtruck12]

As the original sleeves were being bored out, they did pull away from the block bore and did come out mostly complete. More info Monday as work continues

 

[redtruck12]

Reworking my block

For anyone interested in costs.
I did the disassembly and engine removal myself, but shop costs would be in the neighbourhood of about 20 hours I figure to do it properly.
Head gasket set, head bolt set, "top hat / flanged liners, lower gasket set, oil pan gasket, timing chain and both gears, rocker shaft shim kit, Mai bearings, crank bearings, cam bearings, piston ring set will likely total about $2000 Canadian
Machine shop charges including machining and installing sleeves, reboring to size, cylinder honing, rede king the head mating surfaces, cleaning checking servicing and installing all short block components will probably be $1200 aprox.
In addition they will be freshening up the cylinder heads even though no fault was found whit the heads $200? New hoses, fluids rad flushed etc..


So I am figuring I will likely be aprox $4000 "Canadian Pesos" plus roughly 20 hours of my own time, including cleaning, servicing re assembling and reinstalling the engine. I am the type to clean and refinish every nut and bolt to as or better than new while apart. If I'm going to do it I will do it once and the best I can:wink