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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys,

2003 disco 2 with a steam cleaned #5 cylinder. Thought it was a head gasket but no visible failure or clear path to coolant so I suspect that the cylinder wall is cracked. I'd be most appreciative for advice etc.

Thanks
 

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Well first off you'll want to make certain that you do have a slip liner. It's most likely not a cracked liner. What happens is the aluminum behind the liner will crack and steam will seep up between the liner and the block and either past the head gasket or down into your crankcase. So first off what does your engine oil look like? Second you'll want to get your head checked. Pull the valves on that cylinder and see if the back sides of the valve heads are washed. That's not a definitive way to tell but it certainly will give you an idea. What did the head gasket on that cylinder look like? If it was pushing steam past it should leave some marking. You'll want to have the heads checked anyway. Then after that we can get into the various liners that are available. There are two basic kinds. A standard press in and then one that has an o-ring on the bottom that's only available from One Source. This isn't a cheap fix but we can get into more of that later.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Ok there's a noticeable lip on that cylinder so that leads me to believe that the liner slipped, but as you say get everything checked.
 

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Also the head gasket looked good, and the back of the valves head a similar amount of carbon build up as the rest with no noticeable difference.
 

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Description sound very similar to mine except mine was #4
Complete rebuild , Darton flanged liners .....good as new but $5000 missing from the bank account;)
 

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By lip, do you mean that the liner has moved?

What happens when you get what is commonly referred to as a "slipped liner" is that they move inside the block. The leakage occurs when the aluminum bore that the liner is set in develops a crack at some point down the bore, which allows coolant to either enter the crankcase or more likely up and out through the head/block interface.

There are two ways of repairing it. One is what is commonly referred to as a Top Hat sleeve, which is a sleeve with a shoulder on the top that fits into a notch that is machined into the block. For reference, the Rover uses a tapered sleeve. This requires that you fab up blocking plates for the cooling passages, heat the block and then pressure test to look for cracks. Once found, they would need to be stop-drilled and then welded. Your other option is to use the Turner Engineering sleeve, which has an o-ring at the bottom. There is no need to pressure test or weld. If you're unfamiliar with sleeving, there are two typical types, wet and dry. Most heavy truck engines use a wet liner as they need to be replaceable. Most single-bore repairs are done with dry cylinders as the blocks were designed for the structural integrity of full-length material in the original casting, commonly cast iron. With the Rover, you are simply replacing a liner with another and I suppose you could call it a wet/dry liner. Being a design utilizing some of the attributes of a full wet liner, it has the capability of being a "dam" for the water jacket leak. The Turner is also a Top Hat design. The upside of the Turner is that if you get another crack, it won't matter.

Your third option is finding a good replacement block. The good news is that you can re-use the pistons as they virtually never wear. If you move forward with the sleeve approach, make sure your cam bearings are where they should be. They have a habit of moving. I would not invest in a block that has cam bearings that had previously loosened.

You can buy a complete block already sleeved from Turner, but they're not cheap. They will sell you the sleeves, but, as with most things, the end product is only going to be as good as the person doing it. Eight sleeves takes a very competent machinist that isn't in any sort of hurry. That alone just eliminated three quarters of them. A good one is going to charge you a grand for the work.
 

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P.S. If you decide to do this job, there are several errors in the RAVE engine section, specifically on bearing sizes and an omission about replacing the TTY rod bolts.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Wow, thanks for all the responses. Yes, by lip, I mean that I believe that the liner has moved. All other liners a flush with the block deck. I'm currently trying to find a machine shop to both test and possibly install liners. I don't suppose any of you guys are familiar with any good ones in the milwaukee, wi area?
 

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There's really no test. Other than removing the liner and pressure testing. In fact, the moved liner IS the test.

I would visit Turner Engineering's website. Once you do the currency conversion you're going to find out that even with shipping you're talking about a couple hundred in savings. Finding a shop that has previously done this job in your local area is incredibly unlikely. Do you want to save a couple hundred and have someone that, even if they're really good, would be doing it the first time? Plus, this is mid-season for motorsports. All the good guys are two months plus out on doing a job like this. They're buried right now, trying to get guys back on the track or the water. If you're not a regular and have a relationship, you're invisible until early December. Frankly, I'd be suspect of anyone that could get this in for you right now.

When looking for machine shops, there are three kinds. First is the general automotive machinist. These guys are usually in or affiliated with an auto parts distributor. They're doing work for the general repair shops, doing valve jobs, etc. At the risk of stereotyping, this isn't your guy- at least not on a job like this. Second is the HD shop. These guys are doing work for the truck and machinery market. They can typically accommodate small engine work. They're used to doing precision work, but may shy away from this one- and they're going to be expensive and probably have a long wait. The third is a racing engine builder or performance machine shop. These guys range from being total hacks to engine building prodigies. The majority of good one's are booked for many many months out. Most engine builders are pretty busy with their own projects so doing outside machining is definitely back-burner for them. There used to be a bunch of these guys out there but the hot rod industry has contracted in this area significantly in the past few decades.

As far as people in your area, ATECO in Ingleside IL is a reputable place and I know them. Performance in Middleton is a competent shop.
 

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Wow, thanks for all the responses. Yes, by lip, I mean that I believe that the liner has moved. All other liners a flush with the block deck. I'm currently trying to find a machine shop to both test and possibly install liners. I don't suppose any of you guys are familiar with any good ones in the milwaukee, wi area?
Is yours a 4.0 or a 4.6. If it is only a 4.0, go find a 4.6 block and put that in instead.

If you are buying a secondhand engine, try and make sure you get one from a vehicle that was written off in an accident rather than one that was just parted out. You know the reason why the car is being parted if it was in an accident, the others could have been taken off the road due to engine issues.

If it was just a slipped liner, I would put tophat liners in. As you appear to also have a crack in the block, I would find another motor.
 

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Alan,

As you research this issue, you will find that "liner noise" is a common malady with these engines. I had a kid come past my shop yesterday to pick up some parts and his was making the noise. The noise is indicative of one or more of the liners moving in the block. It isn't necessarily a sign of impending failure, but I wouldn't want to rebuild a used engine that I never heard running and come to find out it had that noise.

Don't concern yourself with engine size. You '03 already has a 4.6 in it. They all did.

As far as cracks in the block, the reason that Turner uses the O-ring liner is that the aluminum block material around the liner is quite thin. If you put a replacement liner in the bore, the boring process will make it even thinner and thus more susceptible to cracking. Without the o-ring at the bottom, you can go to all this trouble and still get coolant leaks into your crankcase at a later time. As I mentioned before, the o-ring approach isn't some half-assed patch, but very mature technology.

I would put topcoat liners in.
You can check, but I don't think these are a thing.
 

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If you put a replacement liner in the bore, the boring process will make it even thinner and thus more susceptible to cracking.
If the person fitting the liners is going to bore the block, take it somewhere else. There should be no boring involved and there is not enough material there to do it. Rover does not even make oversize pistons as the liners and block are as thin as they can be and you cannot bore either.

The only machining required to fit tophat liners is at the very top of the bore to put in a small recess to to the top of the liner to fit.

So if you have a cracked block, it is virtually impossible to fix the crack, they put in the new liners and hope that it does not eventually get worse and start to leak past the new liners.

Most slipped liners do not involve a cracked block as well and that is why the tophat liners are a good fix, but if it is cracked, I would replace the block.
 

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Again, incorrect, misleading information.

You can see here a full description by a person with actual hands-on experience, including videos he shot of the process. http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/f40/my-diy-cylinder-liner-sleeve-removal-top-hat-install-video-pics-inside-68210/

Fortunately, Turner Engineering supplies a spec sheet with full instructions on how the sleeves are to be installed, for your machinist to follow.

You could go on a grand block-collecting expedition and punch the old liners out of blocks until you found one that tested good. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with welding a block that you know otherwise to be good. We just sent a $28,000 gear out to have it welded to replace a broken tooth. Now, you wouldn't want a trailer hitch shop to weld it, but if the engine mounts on the F-1 engines of the Saturn V booster were perfectly suitable by being welded, a proficient welder can fix the crack in your engine block. A good engine builder/machinist has someone he deals with regularly that welds blocks and cylinder heads for him. Aluminum is probably the easiest, most successfully repaired metal of them all.
 

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The thickness of the block behind the liner can be as thin as 83 thousands of an inch and the best a block will have is 118 thou. So if you only machined it 8 thou, you would be removing 10% of the block. But as usual CT is an expert at everything. He posts expert advice in every section of this forum on every model.
 

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Fortunately, Turner Engineering supplies a spec sheet with full instructions on how the sleeves are to be installed, for your machinist to follow.
I could be wrong, but I'm guessing Richard Turner knows.

The Turner Tophat engine in my son's was done originally in October of 2008 and had over 90,000 miles on it when I bought it and rebuilt it.

I may be off-base, but I would recommend you trust the guy that originated it, the guy everyone else copied but hasn't duplicated, over someone that hasn't seen or done it.
 

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I could be wrong, but I'm guessing Richard Turner knows.

The Turner Tophat engine in my son's was done originally in October of 2008 and had over 90,000 miles on it when I bought it and rebuilt it.

I may be off-base, but I would recommend you trust the guy that originated it, the guy everyone else copied but hasn't duplicated, over someone that hasn't seen or done it.
Instead of disagreeing with someone who never listens I will agree with CT and confirm that the block needs to be bored as part of installing Darton sleeves (Turner Engineering is apparently the exclusive supplier for this particular flanged, ORinged flanged liner. I don't know about other sleeve manufacturers (U.s. sleeve etc.) but I do know that they are not ORinged

Turner actually instructs to machine /bore the old liners out as opposed to pressing them out. I checked on the progression of my rebuild on a semi regular basis. The machine shop I deal with and have for about 20 years is familiar with sleeve service and does a lot of Porche stuff.

He was not surprised with the recommended proceedure.

I don't know or even care how thick the block is. I'm not even overly concerned with a leak outside of the liner (it's sealed top and bottom now)
 

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Instead of disagreeing with someone who never listens I will agree with CT and confirm that the block needs to be bored as part of installing Darton sleeves (Turner Engineering is apparently the exclusive supplier for this particular flanged, ORinged flanged liner. I don't know about other sleeve manufacturers (U.s. sleeve etc.) but I do know that they are not ORinged

Turner actually instructs to machine /bore the old liners out as opposed to pressing them out. I checked on the progression of my rebuild on a semi regular basis. The machine shop I deal with and have for about 20 years is familiar with sleeve service and does a lot of Porche stuff.

He was not surprised with the recommended proceedure.

I don't know or even care how thick the block is. I'm not even overly concerned with a leak outside of the liner (it's sealed top and bottom now)
As you can confirm that they need to be bored, can you "confirm" what they need to be bored from and to. Exactly how much needs to be bored from the block when fitting the new sleeves.

All the sleeves I have looked at work with the manufacturer's specs and do not need to change the size of the bore.

I think it is interesting that you do not care about the thickness of the block behind the sleeve. Just think of all the thousands of blocks that Land Rover could have ended up using if they did not care.

Some people machine them out, others just knock them out. But there should be no machining of the actual bore other than the lip at the top for the top hat. They are not hard to remove without machining. Turner just gives a single approach due to idiots out there that do not know how to remove them without machining them out.

From the factory the sleeves have always been seal at the base. It would be rare for coolant to get past the seal into the sump.

The seal used by the factory and others is just a smear of silicon before pressing the sleeve home. I am not sure whether having a O ring machined into the sleeve is a good thing compared to the method used by the factory and others. It is obviously a selling point that gets the public excited.
 

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Turner actually instructs to machine /bore the old liners out as opposed to pressing them out. I checked on the progression of my rebuild on a semi regular basis. The machine shop I deal with and have for about 20 years is familiar with sleeve service and does a lot of Porche stuff.
Richard would certainly know, and after at least a decade that I'm aware of, it's a fix that has worked over and over again. His approach makes sense. The typical machine shop would not be equipped to heat a block in order to punch liners out. Boring them out is a simple machine function. We have a powder coat oven at the shop and I have used it before to heat blocks. Using an asphalt torch to randomly heat the block would not be something I'd be all that comfortable with.

I also agree that the casting thickness outside of the liner is irrelevant, provided the liner is sealed at both ends. Every big diesel engine out there has a wet liner, which means there's absolutely nothing behind their liners but water. And they use o-rings. Detroit started building them this way in the early 1940's and every manufacturer today copies it. Just as with the Turner approach, they register at the deck and fit snugly into the apron at the top of the lower crankcase above the crankshaft webs. The Rover, being a low RPM, low power engine with a very conservative rod angle, bore side angle thrust isn't going to be an issue. It is regularly reported that engines of 100K+ miles are disassembled to find the cross hatch in the bore still intact and the factory pistons are virtually always reusable at that mileage. Angular pressure issues are certainly not a consideration in these engines.

In the end, Darton is the recognized world leader in engine sleeves. They collaborated with Turner to develop this and the product is exclusive to him. He's been doing it for many years with not a single complaint to be found. Best of all, he's nice enough to sell the sleeves to others- and they cost less than anyone else's sleeve. What more could you ask for?
 

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I suppose it comes down to why you want to replace the liners.

The rover blocks for the D2 are designed for the sleeves not to move. If they have moved slightly, it is simply because they were not fully pressed home when it was built. But a slipped liner causes no major issues with the running of the motor.

So it appears that you are only concerned about the coolant leak and for this you are prepared to spend several thousand dollars to fix.

Instead of spending the money straight away, try something like Chemiweld or similar to see if you can stop the leak first. There are newer micro-fibre products that do the same job and claim to be a permanent fix. So something in a bottle costing a few dollars MAY save you the hassle and cost of removing the motor and having new liners fitted.

If you get another block, try to avoid one from a 2003 or 2004 discovery. They are known to be the worst.
 
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