Land Rover and Range Rover Forum banner

21 - 40 of 63 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,690 Posts
Has Jaguar Land Rover Limited published any warnings to support this? I would need to see concrete, reliable data before regarding this as a serious problem.
I am not saying that it is or is not an issue. I would be cautious about doing it as there is a lack of definitive answers out there and it would differ from vehicle to vehicle, mod to mod.


Maybe you should read this and see if you think that your vehicle will still meet the safety standards. http://www.fujitsu.com/downloads/MICRO/fma/marcom/convergence/data/papers/2010-01-2342.pdf
It appears that some manufacturers take it seriously and Procomp actually put their mods through the proper test procedure to make sure the vehicle was still compliant. Maybe Johnson Rods can show their data when they put their mods through the required tests.

Maybe this article from "pickup trucks" in the US will add some light.
As America’s most customized vehicles, pickup trucks are often fitted with specialized aftermarket equipment. However, when an owner alters a vehicle’s wheels, tires, suspension, steering or anything that affects the center of gravity, the stability system could be compromised. This could theoretically include putting a roof rack with a spare tire on top, adding larger tires or an off-road suspension, or even changing to a different-size steering wheel.
Adding complexity: pickup truck stability control systems require special calibration settings that can exceed that of cars and crossovers because most trucks are rear-wheel drive and ESC response has to account for when a truck is hauling a load over those wheels in the cargo box and when it’s empty.
So far, nobody really knows exactly which alterations can be tolerated without compromising a stability system, but it’s clear the arrival of these systems will be a game-changing event for both owners and the aftermarket.
To get a sense of what would happen if modifications were indiscriminately made to a new pickup with stability control, we asked GM’s full-size truck vehicle line director Mike Tulumello.
“Systems integrated to compliance [with mandatory stability control] could be harder to monkey with,“ Tulumello said.
He explained that the electronic systems are so interwoven, it’s hard not to affect some aspect of stability control when you change the handling charateristics of the truck by adding or replacing driveline or suspension hardware.
“Everything has to talk,” Tulumello said. “It’s all integrated. They’re not independent systems.”
Customizing a pickup truck could be risky, he said, “depending on how you do it. More and more, as you alter center of gravity, you’ll get yaw sensors that predict rollover and you’ll get false airbag deployments, things like that.”
Nick Cappa, spokesman for Chrysler, agreed that modifications could be problematic.
“Engineers design, test and optimize performance on factory tires and suspension,” he said. “Modifications, tampering with safety devices and the installation of some aftermarket parts can create unforeseen issues with stability and safety systems.”
The widespread use of stability control technology has prompted manufacturers of suspensions, wheels and tires to begin to study stability systems and what can be done to allow owners to continue to confidently install specialty equipment.
Legally, should an accident occur, the aftermarket parts manufacturer and installer could be targeted, whether the accident was caused by the alterations or not. Once the safety equipment becomes government-mandated, altering a vehicle’s dynamics might even be considered tampering -- a federal offense. The worst-case concern is that aftermarket modifications for pickup trucks could be legislated out of existence.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,009 Posts
Here ya go ;):grin
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
22 Posts
Discussion Starter #23
I am not saying that it is or is not an issue. I would be cautious about doing it as there is a lack of definitive answers out there and it would differ from vehicle to vehicle, mod to mod.[/I][/B]
It's all about personal liberty and freedom. While I may not choose to modify my truck to the degree shown in the document at your link, I will proactively and vigorously defend the rights of other owners to do so. And just as companies like EFILive now market computer applications that enable owners to modify their vehicles' engine control modules and transmission control modules, I've no doubt that similar applications will be developed to enable owners to modify their vehicles' ESC settings to compensate for specifically defined suspension modifications and vehicle load configurations.
 

·
Rover-Holic and Admin
Joined
·
7,895 Posts
I'm going to die, my LR3 is lifted, has bigger tires, roof rack, spare on the rack, roof top tent, and coil sprung. It's amazing I'm still alive to type this. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,690 Posts
I'm going to die, my LR3 is lifted, has bigger tires, roof rack, spare on the rack, roof top tent, and coil sprung. It's amazing I'm still alive to type this. :D
It is.:eek
Why would you do that to a vehicle. Putting all that weight on the roof and a lift. It would handle poorly.
But a LR3 has minor computer control compared to an LR5, which is what this part of the forum is about.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,690 Posts
I think it is interesting that Land Rover Engineers limit the speed you can drive the vehicle at various heights. This is obviously due to the height affecting computer controlled functions on the vehicle. That is the faster you go, the more likely you will trigger these safety systems.
But then you guys state that it is your right to modify your vehicles to outside these safety constraints.
You are right, it is your vehicle. But you should warn people travelling in your vehicle that you have decided to reduce their safety to make your vehicle look better.

It is amazing that a developed country would put the rights of the individual higher than the community as a whole. This clearly shows in the lack of vehicle standards in the USA. The US has the third highest death rate from motor vehicles of all the OECD countries. You are only slightly outdone by Chile and Argentina. At around 10 deaths per 100,000 people, you are nearly double the average for OECD countries. Australia is right around the average as we have national rules about what you can do to a vehicle. But I suppose that it is the same argument you have about guns.

"Land Rover’s four-corner air suspension has a two-stage off-road mode with ride heights of +40mm and +75mm. At speeds below 50km/h the +75mm setting is available and for faster speeds on rutted dirt roads, between 50-80km/h, the vehicle will operate at +40mm. In addition, the new Speed Lowering function cuts drag and enhances fuel economy by automatically reducing the ride height by 13mm at cruising speeds above 105km/h."
 

·
Rover-Holic and Admin
Joined
·
7,895 Posts
I disagree it handles no worse in normal driving than my stock one. Doesn't ride as smoothly though as the EAS equipped truck.

Guessing you have returned all your vehicles to stock than Ian?

If you think that modified vehicles are the cause of traffic deaths over here you are poorly informed and have obviously not spent much time on the roads over here.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,009 Posts
This is getting quite off topic....
Good topic for the lounge?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,690 Posts
Guessing you have returned all your vehicles to stock than Ian?
My 1976 Rangie Pickup has no electronics and only a 2inch body lift.
My am very cautious in regard what I do with my wife's car that has recently been changed from a Discovery 1 to a Volvo XC 90. The amount of electronics in the Volvo is unreal and how simple things like wiring the trailer plug wrong can affect the handling and performance of the car.

If you think that modified vehicles are the cause of traffic deaths over here you are poorly informed and have obviously not spent much time on the roads over here.
I am not saying that such modification cause accidents, but they increase the risk of death and injury to the occupants if an accident occurs. They can certainly prevent an accident in the first place.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,416 Posts
Without any comment from D3 owner's hanbook(same for D4), i'll dig after the D5 one too cos i dont have it yet:

 

·
Rover-Holic and Admin
Joined
·
7,895 Posts
My 1976 Rangie Pickup has no electronics and only a 2inch body lift.
Stock size tires and tread pattern to? To go with that raised COG.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,690 Posts
Stock size tires and tread pattern to? To go with that raised COG.
In line with most of the developed countries, we have national laws that dictate what modifications can be done without a full engineers report.

It appears that I will have to take back many of my earlier comments.You have forced me to have another look at our modification rules. It appears that they have removed a lot of the limitations that use to have on ESC vehicles. It would appear that we can now modify them in line with the normal rules. So we are now allowed to lift a ESC vehicle by 50mm and fit up to 50mm large tyres.

My Rangie complies with all the modification rules.

For those that may be interested, our national modification rules are contained here: https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb_ncop.aspx
 

·
Rover-Holic and Admin
Joined
·
7,895 Posts
Also food for thought in the land Rover ecu software there is the ability to adjust for larger tires. So with dealer support or a something like a gap tool you can let the truck software know that changes have been made

Also noted that you have a lifted range Rover on bigger tires, but it complies with your safety standard. Oddly so does mine for where I live. So I guess we are both safe.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
22 Posts
Discussion Starter #35
In line with most of the developed countries, we have national laws that dictate what modifications can be done without a full engineers report.

It appears that I will have to take back many of my earlier comments.You have forced me to have another look at our modification rules. It appears that they have removed a lot of the limitations that use to have on ESC vehicles. It would appear that we can now modify them in line with the normal rules. So we are now allowed to lift a ESC vehicle by 50mm and fit up to 50mm large tyres.

My Rangie complies with all the modification rules.

For those that may be interested, our national modification rules are contained here: https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb_ncop.aspx
50mm = 1. 97" and Johnson Rods provide 1.5" of lift, which pretty much puts this issue to bed as far as Land Rovers are concerned. Thank you, Ian!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,690 Posts
50mm = 1. 97" and Johnson Rods provide 1.5" of lift, which pretty much puts this issue to bed as far as Land Rovers are concerned. Thank you, Ian!
I would still consider it a concern.
When Land Rover is so concerned with the extra height that they build safety systems to prevent the vehicle being driven above certain speeds at those heights, I think you should listen to the safety concerns of the people who designed it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,690 Posts
Something that you should realise is that these Johnson rods simply run the airbags at a higher pressure. Try running your tyres at 45 psi and then 25psi on a rough dirt road and see what this increased pressure will do to your comfort.
Also the increased pressure will reduce articulation off-road, making it less capable.
These type of mods are really only for mall crawlers.
 

·
VW Dieselgate beneficiary
Joined
·
85 Posts

·
Site Sponsor
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discovery 5 lift kit

Lift rods have been used since the LR3 came out more than 10 years ago.
I get great comments from users and they frequently purchase again when they trade up.
Got this pic from a D5 owner recently using the 1.5 inch lift.
[/IMG]
Discovery 5 lift Kit
 

·
Site Sponsor
Joined
·
103 Posts
D5 18" wheel

Good news, there will now be an 18 inch wheel available for the Discovery 5 that will open up more tire options and will be better for off road. We will be carrying these starting mid August for sale. The price is the same as the LR4 wheel made by Compomotive. Check our website for details as they arrive. johnsonrods.com
 
21 - 40 of 63 Posts
Top