[RWilson]

Hello all,

My 2003 D2 has been diagnosed with a slipped liner / crack in cylinder #6. I'm willing to rebuild the block, but in my discussions elsewhere, someone mentioned that the 2003 block is crap, and that it should not be reused.

So, I'm wanted to get some top-hats installed, but reluctant now to do it on my 2003 block. Anyone thing there is validity to this argument and that I should just find an older P38 block to rebuild?

 

[RWilson]

For anyone interested, I talked with Frida at Turner UK and asked her about rebuilding the 2003 block. She said there's no reason why it wouldn't be a suitable block to put in new flange liners, and they rebuild them all the time.

Next question - since my engine is in the "bad" VIN range for the potential oil pump issues, is there anything there I need to worry about? Or - will replacing the front cover as part of this rebuild fix that issue as well?

 

[RWilson]

No one has rebuilt a 2003 Block or has experience with this?

 

[Optimusduff]

I would only get an engine from an experienced re-manufacturer.

 

[Bosnian Discovery]

1. Welding cast aluminum is hard, and depending on the crack maybe impossible.
2. The "death range" is a problem with the block itself. A new cover can't fix it.

I personally wouldn't rebuild. Here's why:

1. Guaranteed used engine - $2500
2. Reman. short block (with liners) - $5000
3. Reman. long block (with heads/liners) - $7000

But a rebuild? Assuming of course that you pulled and stripped the engine yourself:

1. Machine & Resleeve - $2450 Parts & Labor
2. Reinstall rings/plugs/bearings/bottom end - $500
3. Valve Job - $250
4. Crack Repair - $400? (Shot in the dark)

Then factor in parts:

1. Main Bearings - $80
2. Rod Bearings - $80
3. Cam Bearings - $100
4. Piston Rings - 8 @ $35/ea - $280
5. Camshaft - $150
6. Timing Chain Kit - $120
7. Plugs/Seals - $30
8. Head Gasket Kit - $150
9. Rod Bolts - [email protected] $5 - $80

$4670.

Look at it logically. Dropping $5000 worth of engine into a D2 worth about that much doesn't make ANY sense. It's a sunk cost.

Options:
1. Cut your losses. Selling it outright you'll get $1000-$1500. Parting it out will get you more - there's a LOT of residual value in D2 parts.
2. Buy a guaranteed, used engine and be in your way. Sell parts from the old one.
3. Buy another D2 and keep the old one for spares or part it out.

 

[Optimusduff]

1. Welding cast aluminum is hard, and depending on the crack maybe impossible.
2. The "death range" is a problem with the block itself. A new cover can't fix it.

I personally wouldn't rebuild. Here's why:

1. Guaranteed used engine - $2500
2. Reman. short block (with liners) - $5000
3. Reman. long block (with heads/liners) - $7000

But a rebuild? Assuming of course that you pulled and stripped the engine yourself:

1. Machine & Resleeve - $2450 Parts & Labor
2. Reinstall rings/plugs/bearings/bottom end - $500
3. Valve Job - $250
4. Crack Repair - $400? (Shot in the dark)

Then factor in parts:

1. Main Bearings - $80
2. Rod Bearings - $80
3. Cam Bearings - $100
4. Piston Rings - 8 @ $35/ea - $280
5. Camshaft - $150
6. Timing Chain Kit - $120
7. Plugs/Seals - $30
8. Head Gasket Kit - $150
9. Rod Bolts - [email protected] $5 - $80

$4670.

Look at it logically. Dropping $5000 worth of engine into a D2 worth about that much doesn't make ANY sense. It's a sunk cost.

Options:
1. Cut your losses. Selling it outright you'll get $1000-$1500. Parting it out will get you more - there's a LOT of residual value in D2 parts.
2. Buy a guaranteed, used engine and be in your way. Sell parts from the old one.
3. Buy another D2 and keep the old one for spares or part it out.

Owning and repairing older Land Rovers should be about fun, not economic sense. If we were all boring, rational people we would already be driving a Toyota.

That being said, there is no point in wasting money. Get a quality re-manufactured engine and enjoy your D2 for many years to come.

 

[RWilson]

I hear what you guys are saying, but not getting the same financial numbers

To rebuild myself would be about $3700 - $4000...
A turner shortblock (plus the rest required for the install) is about $6000
Having a respected LR mechanic here in the valley install about $9K...



So, now the debate is if I want to pay an extra $2K for a remanufactured Turner instead of remanufacturing it myself (with Turner parts BTW). It sounds like the only risk is in my block itself.

I could probably get some value out of my block, or turn it into a garage table


And I have to agree with the lack of economic sense and owning a Land Rover! Those 2 things don't really go together

Thank you both for the excellent advice. I'll let you know where I end up and keep details on the progress!

 

[wjsj69]

Great thread.. It seems like most of us non-boring, irrational D2 owners will have to deal with this issue at some point! :drink1:

 

[disco biscuit]

Mine didn't have liner issues but I got about 1000$ in my rebuild. Starting to put it back together now. PTschram saved me a good amount of money. Also the realization some stuff from a 215 Buick fits perfect internally. I had Buick cam bearings tapped in there yesterday...1/2 price.

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[ArmyRover]

I'd just get a good 4.0 block from a earlier D2 put your 4.6 internals in it and be on my way. Why deal with a block that has all the issues that one could have. 4.0 blocks are cheap

 

[RWilson]

ArmyRover - are you suggesting not even to put liners in the 4.0 block? Just pressure test it and go?

 

[wjsj69]

..seems to me, while you're at this point, the extra cost of new liners is priceless for the peace of mind you'll have when it's done. From what I know, even if the block is good, the liners can slip anyway and hammer into the head, or worse, fall down into the crankcase..:bawling:

 

[ArmyRover]

ArmyRover - are you suggesting not even to put liners in the 4.0 block? Just pressure test it and go?

Yes I am, pressure test, make sure the bores are straight and go

 

[RWilson]

Decision Made


Based on lots and lots of research and talking with multiple LR owners who have been down this road before, I have decided to rebuild my engine using my 2003 block.

I'm going to start a new thread and try and keep it up to date with the entire process, as I know others will eventually go down this route one day as well. I'll start with the parts list and go from there.

I'm sure I'll have many questions along the way...

 

[joesfiero]

I just got done with this same exact thing about 4 months ago. Had the 03 motor with the crack behind the liner, pondered what to do, eventually decided to do the rebuild myself.

Those price quotes above are a little exaggerated, let me explain.

based on my (extensive) research, I decided to only put liners in the middle 4 cylinders - 3,4,5,6.

During my research I found someone who had cut a block in half where the crack was and identified the issue which was that the area where they crack is just too thin a wall between the head bolt, coolant chamber, and cylinder hole. The outside 4 cylinders seemed to have a thicker wall there. I found several documented failures by people who actually had the liner out and showed the crack - every single one of them was on one of the middle 4 cylinders and a majority were actually on cylinder 3 or 4 for some reason.

I came across plenty of people who would swear their liner "slipped" or that the block could crack anywhere, but the only documented failures were the same exact 1/4" long crack behind the liner on a middle cylinder. Also, there is a step at the bottom of the cylinder that LR added (I cant remember the year, but I know the 03 had it) that wouldnt allow the cylinder to "drop", however it could move *up* toward the cylinder head because the liner simply didn't have anything to stop it. I found some instances where people could literally pull their liner out by hand. In my case the block had to be heated and the head gaskets showed no signs of liner impact.

So here's what I did - I pulled the engine, disassembled it in my garage and labeled everything - which piston went where and orientation, etc. I brought my bare block to a machine shop to have them pressure test it to see if they could verify the coolant leak which occurs behind the cylinder liner (exhaust gases actually work their way behind the liner and into the coolant chamber via the crack in the block). That was a mistake as he blocked off all coolant ports and proceeded to put 40PSI, then 60, then full shop air pressure at 150PSI to the coolant chamber in the block with it dunked in water to reveal bubbles where there may be a leak - which never showed up. I started getting discouraged thinking I had misdiagnosed the problem, but I was sure the heads were straight and sealed right (I did the head gaskets first thinking thats what it was and had my heads machined and checked for cracks, only to have it still overheat). Bummed with no answer, I decided to go ahead and get 4 liners anyway from Turner Engineering in England. I paid $350 or so with shipping to have the liners sent to my house which astonishingly only took 4 days. I called my machine shop and told him to go ahead and yank the middle liners anyway and I would bring him the new top hat, O-ringed liners to install. When I got there, there was the crack right in the same exact spot as the others that I had researched. Relieved, I had him go ahead and install them, align hone the crank journals and deck the block to assure straightness after the liners were in.

The machine work in all cost me $1000.
The liners, again, only cost about $350 with shipping
The rest of the parts - all new gaskets, main and rod bearings, piston rings, oil pump, timing chain, starter, and anything else I needed along the way only cost me about another $1000 in all so basically I had under $2500 into the entire rebuild doing everything but the liners myself.

Now I have a completely rebuilt motor that I feel very confident in, with all fresh parts and for a very reasonable amount of money IMO. My wife has been driving it around and other than its little quirks, its served us well. I keep an eye on the coolant level and oil level and they seem to be fine so far.

If you have any questions for someone that has actually done this exact build let me know. I learned a lot along the way and have a much better connection with this vehicle having done it.

-Joe

 

[RWilson]

Thank you so much Joe for the information! I'm not sure how you got the other parts for only $1000... I priced everything out at Turners for around $2000. Plus the $1500 to get all top hats installed. The $2000 includes all new bearings, cam, lifters, rods, rockers, water pump, and front cover. I might not need a whole new front cover, just recondition the oil pump with new gears, but im not sure about that.

I'm on vacation this week enjoying the holiday with my family, but would you mind Sending me a personal message with your number that I could call you at next week? Your input and direction will be insanely valuable to me!!

 

[joesfiero]

I didn't buy anything but the 4 liners from Turner. Most other parts I located on Ebay - as much as I hate buying cheap ebay parts, the fact is I was buying the same brand name stuff that the LR aftermarket stores sell but for far less money. I didn't buy a front cover but I did get things like a new starter, belt, thermostat, power steering pump rebuild kit, and some other stuff that wasn't even associated with the actual rebuild - simply because I was getting it so cheap and wanted all new stuff. I didn't do new rockers, cam or lifters however.

Ill message you.

-Joe

 

[columbiar]

Thank you so much Joe for the information! I'm not sure how you got the other parts for only $1000... I priced everything out at Turners for around $2000. Plus the $1500 to get all top hats installed. The $2000 includes all new bearings, cam, lifters, rods, rockers, water pump, and front cover. I might not need a whole new front cover, just recondition the oil pump with new gears, but im not sure about that.

I'm on vacation this week enjoying the holiday with my family, but would you mind Sending me a personal message with your number that I could call you at next week? Your input and direction will be insanely valuable to me!!

Is there anything wrong with your current front cover? If not, I don't know why you would install a new one. It isn't a wear part as far as I know. Definatey replace oil pump gears and timing chain while you are in there.

 

[RWilson]

I'm not sure if I need a new cover yet or not. I will inspect when I get the engine out and apart.

 

[disco biscuit]

The pump does rotate inside the front cover. Mine was good and tight at 160k mi. The centrifugal one should be more reliable than older design oil pumps...but for land rover they had some small amount that had quality defects. Inspect it well and throw it back together. I'm gonna install an oil gauge when it goes back in. I got the connecting rods back yesterday....√ My cam had one lifter that was stuck preventing from spinning and wore a lobe and concave spot in the lifter. The cam bearings were wore pretty bad. I fought that when I bought unfinished bearings off the interweb. Some internet searching brought up the Buick cross reference number (DuraBond #db 11). A 1959 Buick Super cam bearing set my machinist had on the shelf went in well. I paid him 70$ to tap them in and check the cam in it....I got to help him. I got a refund on the 130$ unfinished ones I ordered. My connecting rod Big end bearings were wore enough to change. Not as bad as the cam bearings but wore enough enough on the east/west side to check all of them. I resized three of them and the others looked good. That big end spec is hard to find. On the crank the big end journal should be 2.20-2.22, that was good so I had it polished. The actual big end on the rod without the bearing is the hard to find spec. I had the bearing set there and the number we came up with is 2.314 on the rod with the bearing out. This is the only number I could find and was verified by my machinist as being correct with MY BEARING set. We threw the pistons back in it yesterday for the second time. Also I got the stiff timing chain which fits real tight with all new gears, new cam and Crank bearings. After some research I inspected the old cam gear and used it...it fit perfect. Also worth mention I got almost all parts through PTSchram and highly recommend using him and talking to him. I got the rest through hard internet searches and searching amazon with part numbers in some cases. PT can save a lot of research and money.

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