[blwngsket]

I'm preparing to drive my 03 Discovery down the Baja to Cabo San Lucas, Mx.
I've been looking at the cooling system modifications to help deal with the Temps I May/will run into in the region.
As you know. My options are the inline thermostat modification or the PEL500110 thermostat.
I like the "Keep it simple stupid " modification of the PEL500110 on this one as I am new to Land Rovers.
This however flies in the face of my "highly customize everything" nature.
Any opinions would be greatly appreciated on this.

Thx

Tony

 

[Doug Myers]

I use a 160 thermostat from a BMW E 21, the old 320i model.

 

[pod184]

I use a 160 thermostat from a BMW E 21, the old 320i model.

Doug,
Did the E21 thermostat fit right in place of the OEM disco? Any pictures of the install? What kind of temps do you run with this thermostat?
I didn't realize this thermostat existed before now . . .

 

[Doug Myers]

Doug,
Did the E21 thermostat fit right in place of the OEM disco? Any pictures of the install? What kind of temps do you run with this thermostat?
I didn't realize this thermostat existed before now . . .

It's simple part swapping, nothing complicated.It will install like the current thermostat, orient it properly in place of the current housing; you might modify the hose from the "Y" connecter as it loads to the top of the current housing and @ an angle on the BMW part, to prevent any crease in the radius of the hose should that occur when the hose is attached to the angle pipe. I suggest that you get a new hose assembly if you have an older set up, old hoses don't take kindly to stretching, pulling and bending.

The temp now is 170-172 degrees @ the intake pipe while driving, my scan tool shows real time temp to be in the same neighborhood measured from the ECM. The south does not get anywhere near as hot as where you are planning to go, if you have not you might load up on replacement parts that you can not get there...just a thought.

Doug

 

[Chubbs878]

Does the BMW thermostat produce the same type of spikes and fluctuations that the LR Tstat does? Obviously it has to fluctuate some, but can you give an example? The LR180 gives me 194 on the highway but when I get off it will go up 201-203 really quickly. That's a good 10 degree spike in a few seconds

 

[Neo1975]

I ordered the 180 degree thermostat from Rovers North. Had the coolant system flushed and new Peak Global put in with one bottle of Royal Purple Ice. My coolant temps have been really good so far.
http://www.roversnorth.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=PEL500110&type=0&eq=&key=it

 

[p76rangie]

A 160 thermostat will be too cold. The ECU will still think that the motor has not reached running temp yet and will keep on pumping in additional fuel, etc. I wouldn't go below 180.

 

[Neo1975]

A 160 thermostat will be too cold. The ECU will still think that the motor has not reached running temp yet and will keep on pumping in additional fuel, etc. I wouldn't go below 180.

I read about this before changing mine. Sounded like the 180 was the best solution.

 

[Doug Myers]

Does the BMW thermostat produce the same type of spikes and fluctuations that the LR Tstat does? Obviously it has to fluctuate some, but can you give an example? The LR180 gives me 194 on the highway but when I get off it will go up 201-203 really quickly. That's a good 10 degree spike in a few seconds

Chubbs I don't know... when I have checked it while driving with real time scan function, the temp stays steady 170; Haven't noticed any spikes or abrupt fluctuations but I have not looked for them so it could be occurring between glances.
When I get back to Louisiana, I'll run the scan tool real time to see if this is occurring.

Doug

 

[Doug Myers]

I read about this before changing mine. Sounded like the 180 was the best solution.

I understand the ramifications of fooling the ECM but my concern was for the heat that kills these motors, it does run a little fat looking at the exhaust tip, but it has better power and will live longer than the comparable 180 trucks and mine is over 150K I need it to last until I have time to swap it out. It was a good choice for what I need, but it might not be for everyone.

Doug

 

[Neo1975]

I read about this before changing mine. Sounded like the 180 was the best solution.

I understand the ramifications of fooling the ECM but my concern was for the heat that kills these motors, it does run a little fat looking at the exhaust tip, but it has better power and will live longer than the comparable 180 trucks and mine is over 150K I need it to last until I have time to swap it out. It was a good choice for what I need, but it might not be for everyone.

Doug

Doug, so far my temps have been good. Using an OBDLink LX, I am seeing mostly mid to upper 180s with some mid 190s. I understand the concern about the temps, but is there any concerns with the 160 thermostat other than running rich. I am not planning on changing mine again anytime soon, but better power does sound good.

 

[p76rangie]

I understand the ramifications of fooling the ECM but my concern was for the heat that kills these motors, it does run a little fat looking at the exhaust tip, but it has better power and will live longer than the comparable 180 trucks and mine is over 150K I need it to last until I have time to swap it out. It was a good choice for what I need, but it might not be for everyone.

Doug

Actually wear on the motor significantly increases below around 175.

 

[p76rangie]

Doug, so far my temps have been good. Using an OBDLink LX, I am seeing mostly mid to upper 180s with some mid 190s. I understand the concern about the temps, but is there any concerns with the 160 thermostat other than running rich. I am not planning on changing mine again anytime soon, but better power does sound good.

If you are running in the high 180's to the mid 190's, then your thermostat is having no effect on you running temps. It will just mean that it will take a lot longer to get to those temps. During this extended warm up time you will increase the wear on your motor and increase fuel consumption.

You can find some useful information here: http://www.carnut.com/ramblin/cool3.html

 

[Doug Myers]

Doug, so far my temps have been good. Using an OBDLink LX, I am seeing mostly mid to upper 180s with some mid 190s. I understand the concern about the temps, but is there any concerns with the 160 thermostat other than running rich. I am not planning on changing mine again anytime soon, but better power does sound good.

I don't believe there is an issue, it's not operating strictly @ 160 except for a very brief time @ start up. This was common practice on ITB class cars running early electronic EFI systems. We would install a resistor in the coolant temp sensor ECM signal line to fool the brain into thinking it was cold which supplied more fuel increasing power throughout the rpm range as well as using modified thermostats to keep the operating temp as low as possible. As EFI systems advanced there was no need to do this as systems were much more efficient with fuel increases & coolant temps were moved up or down with flow restrictor plates, a very simple thermostat that can not fail by design. If I'm not mistaken NASCAR builders still use these plates to maintain a constant temp through controlled flow of coolant albeit non-mechanically. Got off track.....sorry
I don't think there is a problem, I do see the by-pass cooling system as a dinosaur, complicated, clutters the engine bay, not efficient and too many components that increase potential problems so keeping the temp down in my mind becomes more important to longevity than the resulting waste a of fuel. I need this thing to last another year or so, I believe keeping the temp down will help this.

Doug

 

[Chubbs878]

I have read where more than a few guys claim the Bosch system will go to closed-loop after 140 deg so I think you may be getting ahead of yourself. That subject with open/closed loop and low-temp Tstats has been beaten to death with no hard evidence to support any drawbacks of running engine at temps well under 190. Furthermore, a 160 deg Tstat doesn't actually maintain 160 deg operating temps, more like 170-180 range such as Doug has noted. Why in the hell would these manufacturers put an oil cooler on a D2 if the engine oil was supposedly detrimental to said engine under a certain temp? Dont believe everything you read, much less on the world-wide-web where anyone can post any damn thing with no factual basis. Do everything you can to get your coolant and motor oil temps down, this 60-year old Buick is begging for it. I'm putting an inline 180 Tstat and oil cooler on my truck this weekend. Maybe the headgaskets will last a few more months. I can't believe the number of you guys that continue to stand behind these LR Tstats, 180 or not. The damn things pull 10-15 degree temp swings all day long. So what if I'm running 194 deg, 95 percent of the time when it spikes to 203 in 5 seconds and takes 5 min to cool back down to 194 again? I can do without that, but the family I bought this truck from couldn't have cared any less about improving and upgrading vital components so the HGs were already on its last leg, unfortunately. Won't happen again though! Not on my watch, at least

 

[Chubbs878]

Doug, so far my temps have been good. Using an OBDLink LX, I am seeing mostly mid to upper 180s with some mid 190s. I understand the concern about the temps, but is there any concerns with the 160 thermostat other than running rich. I am not planning on changing mine again anytime soon, but better power does sound good.

I don't believe there is an issue, it's not operating strictly @ 160 except for a very brief time @ start up. This was common practice on ITB class cars running early electronic EFI systems. We would install a resistor in the coolant temp sensor ECM signal line to fool the brain into thinking it was cold which supplied more fuel increasing power throughout the rpm range as well as using modified thermostats to keep the operating temp as low as possible. As EFI systems advanced there was no need to do this as systems were much more efficient with fuel increases & coolant temps were moved up or down with flow restrictor plates, a very simple thermostat that can not fail by design. If I'm not mistaken NASCAR builders still use these plates to maintain a constant temp through controlled flow of coolant albeit non-mechanically. Got off track.....sorry
I don't think there is a problem, I do see the by-pass cooling system as a dinosaur, complicated, clutters the engine bay, not efficient and too many components that increase potential problems so keeping the temp down in my mind becomes more important to longevity than thhe resulting waste a of fuel. I need this thing to last another year or so, I believe keeping the temp down will help this.

Doug

You are correct in all aspects. Can you believe people that not only stand behind this ridiculous bypass system, much less recommend it?! There are quite a few guys that have been with the inline Tstat mod at 180 and not one of them has coolant-related issues. I highly doubt that any of them will be having any type of HG, cyl liner failure any time soon, as opposed to all of these 180 LR stat guys, still asking about HG replacement and top-hat liners or pegging lines to block to stop all the raquet. Just get off of the LR stat housing already and save yourself a major headache. (Not you, D)
But I do like the BMW stat that you are running. I plan to get one and maybe stick that back in after fall with a 180 Tstat in the housing (saw them on EBay) and see how it does.

 

[Chubbs878]

Doug, so far my temps have been good. Using an OBDLink LX, I am seeing mostly mid to upper 180s with some mid 190s. I understand the concern about the temps, but is there any concerns with the 160 thermostat other than running rich. I am not planning on changing mine again anytime soon, but better power does sound good.

If you are running in the high 180's to the mid 190's, then your thermostat is having no effect on you running temps. It will just mean that it will take a lot longer to get to those temps. During this extended warm up time you will increase the wear on your motor and increase fuel consumption.

You can find some useful information here: http://www.carnut.com/ramblin/cool3.html

I looked at this article for about 5 seconds and immediately noticed that you quoted it completely out of context. First of all, this is just an amateur spouting off second-hand info that he obtained from God-knows-where. Secondly, you left out all of the "ifs," "ands," "buts."
Good job. This is exactly why each needs to do his own leg-work trying to decide what's best for his own vehicle and to be skeptical if not paranoid of all the answers he gets to his questions LOL.

 

[p76rangie]

I have read where more than a few guys claim the Bosch system will go to closed-loop after 140 deg so I think you may be getting ahead of yourself.

I have done extensive research on the Land Rover EFI systems. I did this because I wanted to drop the thermostat rating to get the engine to run cooler. Every bit of official documentation I could find indicated that the fuel enrichment stops once the operating temp reaches 80C. That is why I chose a thermostat temp of 180F. Which is the recommended thermostat by Land Rover for a DII.

If the cooling system on your car is adequate for your vehicle, your engine should operate at a temp just above the opening temp of your thermostat. That is, mine operates at around 182F.

If your car is running 10 to 15 degrees above your thermostat temp, I suggest you have a close look at your cooling system.

If your car operates at around 190F with a 160F, your change in thermostat is having no benefit to the operating temp of your vehicle. It is not getting to run any cooler. It is actually a proven fact that trying to get the motor to run cooler by having no thermostat, or a low temp one, actually causes the cooling system to struggle to keep the engine cool and at the right temp. All you are doing is making it take longer to get to this operating temp by opening the thermostat early. So there is no benefit, yet it is increasing the wear on your motor and you are chewing through extra fuel when it is cold.

 

[p76rangie]

There are quite a few guys that have been with the inline Tstat mod at 180 and not one of them has coolant-related issues.

The 180 Degree thermostat is actually the temp recommended by Land Rover for a DII.
Up to the 1990's Land Rover ran 180F thermostats in their V8's.
During the 1990's Land Rover when to 190F thermostats for anti-pollution reasons. They later found that the engines were starting to drop liners and blow head gaskets. They then brought out an interim thermostat while they were still sorting out the best operating temp. They then reduced the thermostat to the old 180F.

So the DII's have 3 thermostats through their model years. It started at the 190F one and ended with the 180F. So anyone with a DII should be using the thermostat they decided on at the end (180) not the one at the beginning (190F) that they found to cause issues with the motor.

Over the years I have got very sick of the misinformation contained in forums. That is why I decided to reply to this thread.

 

[Neo1975]

Doug, so far my temps have been good. Using an OBDLink LX, I am seeing mostly mid to upper 180s with some mid 190s. I understand the concern about the temps, but is there any concerns with the 160 thermostat other than running rich. I am not planning on changing mine again anytime soon, but better power does sound good.

If you are running in the high 180's to the mid 190's, then your thermostat is having no effect on you running temps. It will just mean that it will take a lot longer to get to those temps. During this extended warm up time you will increase the wear on your motor and increase fuel consumption.

You can find some useful information here: http://www.carnut.com/ramblin/cool3.html

P76rangie, thanks for the reply. As far as my temps, I thought climate and driving conditions made a difference. The temps vary depending on if I am in stop and go traffic vs cruising at 55mph-65mph on the highway. Mountain crossings haven't made a big difference so far. I have read of some having temps well over 200 (maybe 210 or so, can't remember exactly). Is my temp range safe?