[Paul Grant]

There is no spyder (spider) in NAS DI's. Period, end of story.

I thought I would cross post this from LRF.

I have been joking about this topic on a few threads but it's time to get the facts straight.

The part that Rovers North sells as a bypass for the spyder is in fact for 300Tdi equipped Discovery models. No where on their website does it mention anything about North American Spec (NAS) DI's. Look at any link to the spyder posted on any thread, be it the "Definitive Alarm Spyder Post" or any other, THEY ALL TALK ABOUT 300Tdi DI's not NAS V8 models.

Be my guest, if you doubt me, tear into your dash to prove me wrong. I've disassembled well over 100 of these trucks, '94-'99, 14CUX to GEMS, SD to LSE and the spyder does not exist on NAS trucks.

It's time to stop spreading this erroneous information with regard to NAS DI's.

 

[Blamo]

You do have to admit having a giant spider in your dash does sound pretty cool !

 

[p76rangie]

The answer to the question that no one has asked. What the **** is a spyder anyway. I can only find it as a model of car.

 

[Paul Grant]

Ian, what a surprise to see you commenting on anything other than old carbureted Rangies.

If you ever bothered to take a look at one of the larger Land Rover forums (landroverforums.com) you'd see that this is actually an issued discussed ad nauseam among DI owners There have been numerous threads about the existence of an immobilizer, called the Spyder, on DI's and how to deal with them when they malfunction. Many in the NAS market have been misinformed about its presence on their DI's. One of the larger Rover parts suppliers even sells a part to unwitting NAS DI owners with full knowledge that the Spyder was never installed on trucks destined for this market.

Worst of all, in order to determine whether or not this Spyder was installed one has to take apart a large portion of the dash. Imagine how you'd feel if you went through all that BS only to find that your truck was never, ever equipped with this Spyder. So, after researching this mythical beast, in an effort to get the word out to unsuspecting DI owners, I've made this post.

From all I have been able to learn regarding the immobilizer called Spyder, it was installed primarily on 300Tdi DI's, Defenders and Classics for ROW. The Land Rover part # for the Spyder is AMR4889 and was superseded by YWJ500020. It is no longer available from Land Rover so they now offer a bypass part # AMR4956. This Spyder is located directly behind the radio in the center of the dash. This is where the bypass would be installed.

Sadly, a search of the DI forum here, on LRF or Dweb will turn up a number of people in the NAS market who, due to misinformation not only bought a part to bypass another part that was never in their truck, but went through the bother of tearing their dash apart for no good reason. Hence, my post.

You may think it's an answer to a question no one has asked but I beg to differ.

 

[jhmover]

I take exception. My NAS D1 had a spider in the dash. When he popped out I squished him.

 

[Rodewaryer]

Bandwagonners, can't live with'em, can't kill'em. Geezus, just because it doesn't apply to you or answer any question you ever asked, ahem, let it go.

Thanks for making this post, officially. I had looked into it while chasing electrical gremlins in my $1500 special 98 D1, but after wasted time researching it etc, you are right, turns out we (NAS) don't have it. Thankfully.

...but I'm still chasing them gremlins...something still leaves the battery dead after 2-3 days. Been checked out electrically now by 2 shops, with findings, and they were certain that when I arrived to pick it up that the drain was within acceptable limits. Then it just comes back.

Should have kept that little bugger out of the water after midnight.

 

[p76rangie]

Ian, what a surprise to see you commenting on anything other than old carbureted Rangies.

If you ever bothered to take a look at one of the larger Land Rover forums (landroverforums.com) you'd see that this is actually an issued discussed ad nauseam among DI owners

Firstly, I never comment on carbureted Rangies, but I do stick to Classic Rangies. I also have and comment on D1's and often post in this section.

Secondly, if you spelt it correctly as "spider", I might have found what you were referencing when I searched the internet. As stated in my post the main thing that "Spyder" shows up when searched is a model of car.

So it might be helpful in the future if you were clear as to what you are talking about.

Finally you cannot be sure that there were no Disco's sold in the US with the spider unit installed. You can only state that it was not installed in all of them and people should check before blaming it for some fault they are having.

 

[Paul Grant]

Ian,
Thank you for mentioning the spelling. On LRF people have been spelling it both ways so it's best to include the two spellings to insure search engines will find this post.

With regard to the existence of this part on NAS vehicles, I can say, unequivocally, that no NAS Di was ever equipped with this part because this part is specifically for 300 Tdis Rovers and we NEVER had them legally imported into the NAS market. The Land Rover part for the spyder (spider) doesn't exist in NAS Land Rover parts books.

Now, how about letting the post simply exist for the purpose in which is was intended, as a warning to people who own NAS DI's rather than have it devolve into a silly pissing contest.
Cheers,
Paul

 

[p76rangie]

With regard to the existence of this part on NAS vehicles, I can say, unequivocally, that no NAS Di was ever equipped with this part because this part is specifically for 300 Tdis Rovers and we NEVER had them legally imported into the NAS market. The Land Rover part for the spyder (spider) doesn't exist in NAS Land Rover parts books.

Now, how about letting the post simply exist for the purpose in which is was intended, as a warning to people who own NAS DI's rather than have it devolve into a silly pissing contest.
Cheers,
Paul

From the searches that it has come up in, it appears that it was fitted to the V8's as well, which were imported to the US.

It appears that the reason that the thread exists is that you have had arguments with people on other forums as to whether they existed or not. So instead of arguing with them you posted your view here, as no one here was concerned or had a view on it.

You are obviously convinced that they do not exist in NAS D1's. Of course you should warn people if you think they are being ripped off. But to state that no D1's in the US have them fitted without any proof, outside your own experience in wrecking a few, is just wrong. You might send someone down the wrong path. So warn them that based on your experience that it is highly unlikely that they have one, rather than the stupid title of this thread.

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=86
http://www.injectronics.com.au/assets/Uploads/InjectronicsTechnicalBulletin69.pdf

From the RAVE CD also stating that they were fitted to some V8's as well.
"ENGINE IMMOBILISATION FUNCTION
(Not on all vehicles!)
The engine will be immobilised whenever the theft alarm is armed or the the Theft Alarm Unit (Z163) enters the Passive Immobilisation mode (regardless of whether or not the alarm is armed). There are two methods of Engine Immobilisation featured:
1. Electronic Engine Immobilisation (used on MFI–T16 and 300 Tdi with EDC engines)
2. Remote “Smart Spider” Immobilisation (used on MFI–V8 and 300 Tdi without EDC engines)
The vehicle may only be mobilised by using the handset or entering the correct EKA code.

 

[Paul Grant]

Ian,
AMR4889 (the spyder spider) DOES NOT EXIST IN NAS PARTS MANUALS.

You're the only stubborn, self proclaimed, know it all I've had issues with regarding this part. Take a look over at LRF and you will see that owners of NAS DI's are happy to have this matter cleared up. Oh, and by the way it was cleared up by me and an employee of Rovers North.

So, if you don't own an NAS DI, I simply don't understand why you're even adding your BS to this thread.

 

[p76rangie]

Ian,
AMR4889 (the spyder spider) DOES NOT EXIST IN NAS PARTS MANUALS.

You're the only stubborn, self proclaimed, know it all I've had issues with regarding this part. Take a look over at LRF and you will see that owners of NAS DI's are happy to have this matter cleared up. Oh, and by the way it was cleared up by me and an employee of Rovers North.

So, if you don't own an NAS DI, I simply don't understand why you're even adding your BS to this thread.

From what I can tell, that part number is now superseded and is for the 300TDi, not for the V8.
So this is your proof that you can not find a diesel part number in someone's parts catalogue.
You are the only one claiming to know it all. I have not stated that they do or do not have them.

First you state that they were not fitted to V8's and that was your proof. Well you were proved wrong on that by the RAVE CD. Now you are quoting Diesel part numbers as your proof.

My issue has only been that you make a post indicating that you are an expert on the matter and they definitely do not exist in NAS d1's. What you should be saying is that based on your experience in wrecking a few, they do not exists and people should be cautious about people selling fixes for them.

As the US switched to the new fuel injection system in 96 and the spider was introduced in 96, it is unlikely that you will have a spider in your D1. But if you have one of the last 14CUX injected systems and have a 2 button remote, you will most likely have one.

 

[Paul Grant]

I don't know why I bother with you. It's like talking to a thick log.

FOR CONCERNED PARTIES:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SPYDER OR SPIDER IMMOBILISER (ROW LAND ROVER PART # YWJ500020 OR AMR4889) IN NAS (NORTH AMERICAN SPEC) SERIES I DISCOVERY MODELS FROM 1994-1999. WHETHER YOU HAVE A 5 SPEED, AUTOMATIC, 14CUX EFI SYSTEM, GEMS EFI SYSTEM, SD, SE, SE7, LSE, LE, ANNIVESARY EDITION, TREK EDITION OR ANYTHING ELSE I MAY HAVE FAILED TO MENTION.

Ian, would prefer that you pull apart your dashboard because he believes that he knows everything about NAS DI's. So, should you choose to take it upon yourself to perform this needless task, when you discover the warning in this thread was correct, take it up with him.

 

[Paul Grant]

And, thank you Ian for bumping this thread to the top. The more NAS owners that see this, the better.

 

[Paul Grant]

Ian, you said:

"First you state that they were not fitted to V8's and that was your proof."

When, in fact, what I said was:

"Look at any link to the spyder posted on any thread, be it the "Definitive Alarm Spyder Post" or any other, THEY ALL TALK ABOUT 300Tdi DI's not NAS V8 models."

and

"it was installed primarily on 300Tdi DI's, Defenders and Classics for ROW."

The key word in this snippet being, "primarily" so your assertion that I based my claim on an assumption that no V8's were equipped with the spyder spider is wrong along with the rest of your thinly constructed argument.

You said:

"My issue has only been that you make a post indicating that you are an expert on the matter and they definitely do not exist in NAS d1's. What you should be saying is that based on your experience in wrecking a few, they do not exists and people should be cautious about people selling fixes for them."

I've said that research, conversations with one of the largest Rover parts suppliers in the NAS market and my personal experience have led me to post this observation on several Rover boards. It's done, not in an effort to come off as an expert but, rather to save people in the NAS market time and money. If I were half the egotist you seem to claim I am, I would be posting declarative statements all over the boards and have, maybe thousands more posts that I actually do.

You said:

"As the US switched to the new fuel injection system in 96 and the spider was introduced in 96, it is unlikely that you will have a spider in your D1. But if you have one of the last 14CUX injected systems and have a 2 button remote, you will most likely have one."

Here is where you've run off the rails. The spyder spider was not intended for the 10AS alarm system with the two button remote found in GEMS trucks. It was intended for some variation of the Lucas control unit found in ROW 14CUX models with the single button. That's why the fitment guide for the spyder spider stops with '96. I am going to state, clearly, that I DO NOT KNOW WHEN THE GEMS EFI SYSTEM WAS ADOPTED FOR THE ROW. However, it would appear as though by 1997 this was the case thus the reason why the spyder spider fitment is through '96.

Now, if I was attempting to be a know it all, I would absolutely assert this to be the case. However, because I don't know when the EFI systems were changes all around the world, I choose only to make the statement I made at the top of this thread. THERE IS NO SPYDER
SPIDER IN NAS DI'S.

You, on the other hand, seem to be certain that I am wrong about the NAS market and I am perfectly happy to leave it at that. I think the information I have provided here is more than enough for NAS DI owners to make up their minds.

 

[p76rangie]

Paul, you just can't resist digging a bigger hole for yourself.

The spider was never fitted anywhere in the world to the GEMs motor.

The rest of the world did not move away from the 14CUX system until the D2.

The spider unit was not introduced in the D1 until 1996.

US went to GEMs motor in 96. That is why it is rare to find a spider unit on a NAS vehicle.

So if you have no distributor in a D1, you have no spider.
If you have a distributor and a single button remote, you have no spider.
If you have a D1 manufactured around 95/96 with a distributor and a two button remote, you will have a spider unit.

END OF STORY

Just admit that you made a generalised statement when you should not have. Whether a spider is fitted or not is EFI system related and not NAS related. It is just that NAS vehicles went to the GEMs system around the same time that the Spider was introduced and therefore they would be rare in NAS vehicles. But to say that they were never fitted to NAS vehicles is just a reckless statement.

Straight from the NAS version of RAVE CD
The Remote “Smart Spider” Immobilisation is controlled jointly by the Engine Immobilisation Control Unit (Spider) (Z271) and the Theft Alarm Unit (Z163). When the Theft Alarm Unit (Z163) immobilises the vehicle, it sends a signal to the Engine Immobilisation Control Unit (Spider) (Z271). The “Spider” then interrupts the starter circuit, fuel pump circuit, and Ignition coil circuit for MFI–V8 engines, or the starter circuit and the fuel pump shutoff solenoid circuit for 300 Tdi without EDC engines. These circuits will remain interrupted until the “Spider” receives a mobilise signal from the Theft Alarm Unit (Z163).

 

[Paul Grant]

Your cut and paste of one mention of the spider is fine. However, help me to decipher this:

In the RAVE 1995 Discovery Workshop Manual on pages 86-5 and 86-6 the spider only appears in the vehicle when it is equipped with the 10AS alarm ecu and two button remote (associated with GEMS in the US). Granted, this runs contrary to what we have both been asserting but it is what the manual says. The title of page 86-6 os “Alarm Component Locations (96 models).” Take note that there is an asterisk following component #11, the spider and is states “where applicable.”

So, from that, are we to assume there was no spider with the older 17VT Lucas alarm ecu? That just doesn’t seem quite right. Is the manual wrong?

 

[Paul Grant]

Now, you've said that if you don't have a distributor you don't have a spider, correct?

It appears that the '96 DI might be a one off for the ROW. I will repeat that I do not know the various forms the engine management systems took in the rest of the work but here in the US we NEVER got a 10AS alarm box with a 14CUX ECU. We got the Lucas 17VT alarm ecu with the one button remote. In '96, when we got the 10AS alarm ECU and two button remote, it came with GEMS.

So, the '95 DI ETM shows the '96 model year DI with a spider, not the '95 model year. We never got a '96 DI without a distributor but, apparently the ROW did. You yourself said ROW never got GEMS. Any help in sorting this out is welcomed.

 

[p76rangie]

Paul, as it appears that you have been looking at the RAVE CD, you will know that it always states whether something is only applicable to or excluded from NAS vehicles.
You will also note that no such statements regarding NAS vehicles are stated regarding the spider.
Therefore it can be reasonably stated that whether you have a spider or not is not related to whether you have a NAS vehicle or not.

In regard to your questions, as you have now found out, the spider was only introduced in 96.

As I keep on stating, as you changed to the GEMs system in 96 and the spider was introduced in 96, the instances of spiders in NAS vehicles would not be common.

Land Rover are not very strict with changing specifications all at the same time. So when they actually introduced the spider compared to the GEMs would open up a timeframe when NAS vehicles could have been fitted with a spider. That is around the changeover between the 95 and 96 vehicles. That is why I gave the check list.

 

[Paul Grant]

OK, Ian, I think you're narrowing this all down nicely for NAS DI owners.

It's you're claim that:

1) "As I keep on stating, as you changed to the GEMs system in 96 and the spider was introduced in 96, the instances of spiders in NAS vehicles would not be common."

2) "As the US switched to the new fuel injection system in 96 and the spider was introduced in 96, it is unlikely that you will have a spider in your D1. But if you have one of the last 14CUX injected systems and have a 2 button remote, you will most likely have one."

3) "The spider was never fitted anywhere in the world to the GEMs motor."

4) "So if you have no distributor in a D1, you have no spider."

5) "If you have a distributor and a single button remote, you have no spider."

6) "If you have a D1 manufactured around 95/96 with a distributor and a two button remote, you will have a spider unit."

Boiling this down a little further for NAS customers, what you're saying they should look for to determine whether or not they have a Spider is:

1) 1995 Model Year NAS DI with a 3.9L 14CUX EFI ECU, Distributor, 10AS Alarm ECU (green unit) and a two button alarm remote.

2) 1996 Model Year NAS DI with a 3.9L 14CUX EFI ECU, Distributor, 10AS Alarm (green unit) and a two button alarm remote.

What this would also mean is that any 1996 NAS DI with a 4.0L GEMS EFI ECU, Coil Pack, 10AS Alarm (green unit) and two button alarm remote DOES NOT HAVE A SPIDER.

Do we have an understanding on the comments above?

 

[Rodewaryer]

Mr. Grant, excellent post. It should be stickied...for future reference.