[dezertrover]

Ever since I bought my '95 RRC, the factory timing marks never appear when a timing light is used on the number one cylinder lead. Also, if I turn the motor by hand to TDC on the pulley the distributor never seems to point at the number one cylinder on the distributor cap either. I rotated the motor a second time to be sure, and still no luck. The truck runs and drives but the timing seems a little off.

I found some hand drawn distributor marks on the pulley that the timing light matches up with if checked with the timing light connected to the number one cylinder wire. However, these hand drawn lines make it more difficult to time the rover accurately.

Does this mean that someone replaced the distributor without setting the motor to TDC and possibly even turned the motor without the distributor in the motor before installing the replacement? Or would the oil pump gear be in the wrong orientation?

Thanks

 

[redtruck12]

It sound more likely that the harmonic balancer (crank pulley) outer ring has slipped.
The pulley is keyed directly yo the crankshaft so oil pump has no affect.
It will be pretty difficult to time the engine correctly.
There is a process to check that the mark correlates to t.d.c. By turning the engine over by hand with the #1 plug out. You need to basically rock the engine intenally (turn the crank) back and forth at the top travel of the compression stroke to find the middle point of crankshaft rotation between piston travelling up and down. The marks should line up,if all is correct. If not you could make a temporary mark for setting timing but if it is out /has slipped it needs replacement.

 

[CT090]

I second that. If it slipped, it's not done moving. If the ring comes loose it will likely break the front cover, killing the oil pump and maybe bending the crank snout. balancer keys can shear- and this balancer isn't a press fit.

 

[ihscouts]

Hmmm, I'd say that's likely Red, the crank pulley could have rotated but it's keyed to the crank snout. I've had one take out the front cover seal because the pulley throat cracked. Besides the oil on my shoes/ground the pulley was wobbling....... kinda really easy to notice. The key can hob out the keyway in the pulley and rotate but it's only going to be a few degrees, not as many as Dez has. The key is half moon, tough to sheer, they roll is what happens. They hob the keyway and crank shallow cut until it rolls over. It takes a long long time for that to happen.

Get the number one to TDC intake stroke. To time a dizzy equipped motor you rotate the dizzy to the number one cap terminal. That means you lift the distributor out of the block and rotate the rotor to meet number one. Because you have a helical gear on the cam/dizzy you want to get it so that it's just before/after the number one and then seat the dizzy as many times needed until the rotor is pointed at number one cap terminal. Then you can check timing off no.1 spark plug wire.

The oil pump is slotted to fit into the bottom of the dizzy. It doesn't matter where the oil pump shaft is located once the dizzy is set, the oil pump isn't timed, the sparklers are. Turn the pump shaft with a flat blade screw driver until its lined up with the dizzy. It sucks, been there done that with many distributors in my life.

 

[redtruck12]

1st timer

I guess we will see if we ever hear from him again��

 

[ihscouts]

I'm sure we will, he's up to his nuts in it now. I know the only way you can verify the crank pulley is good is by removing it. Not tough if you know how (bump the starter with a breaker bar under the frame). Getting it back on is a whole nutha trick to hit spec.

 

[p76rangie]

It is not uncommon for timing marks to be out. It is something I always check.

Simply pull number 1 spark plug and get a long necked screw driver. Make a mark on the screw driver shaft and put it down the spark plug hole until it rests on the piston. Turn the motor by a socket on the pulley until the mark on the screw driver reaches a fixed point on the head, like the upper edge of the spark plug hole. Mark the timing pulley. Keep on turning over the motor until the piston comes back to the same point and mark the timing pulley again. Half way between the two marks is top dead centre.

 

[dezertrover]

Thanks for the input guys!

Haha, I had to make a new account on this forum since I cannot reset/retrieve the password from my old one as I no longer have my old email address anymore. My old account from 2010 was Classic4me so I still recognize a few names still on here.

Ill start first with looking into that slotted key on the crank to see if it is damaged and where the pulley is in relation to the slot.

 

[redtruck12]

Hey
Sorry about the first timer comment
Welcome back
Without knowing where the piston is it will be difficult to know if your marks are correct
Lots of advice and methods suggested but make sure you are on the compression stroke.
Knowing is key. You may or may not see anything at the keyway
Good luck
Let us know how you make out

 

[ihscouts]

Uh, compression stroke, I said intake. Nice snag Red! Whew, been a day or two, like the early 90's, cobwebs.

Classic, do you have the manual? 2010 was the beginning of the end here........ I joined four other forums that year no kidding.

 

[p76rangie]

There is no need to worry about whether it is on the compression stroke or not if you are checking the timing mark on the crank pulley. One turn on the crank is one cycle on the piston. The compression stroke only matters if you are trying to line up the rotor button for that cylinder to fire. That is, it takes 2 turns on the crank to turn the rotor button once.

You should find that the pulley is solid, so there is no outer ring to slip. It would be extremely difficult for the key to break, but I suppose some clown may have left the key out when assembling it.

I am not even sure that you will see the keyway unless you remove the pulley completely. These are some photos from one of my engine rebuilds, the slot sits a fair way back and I can't see it on the photo of the front of the pulley. It would make sense if it didn't come all the way through as it would reduce the chance of oil leaks out the shaft.

 

[CT090]

There is no need to worry about whether it is on the compression stroke or not if you are checking the timing mark on the crank pulley.

True, if you have something like a borescope to look down the spark plug hole, or some other means of detecting the piston is at TDC. Using the compression stroke allows someone to figure this issue out with nothing more than the ignition key and their index finger.

 

[ihscouts]

Actually you use a breaker bar on the crank pulley bolt to turn the engine over to get the piston to TDC. Placing a soda straw in the cylinder will tell you when the piston is to the top. You should also be aware of the engine rotation when running and turn the motor off and rotate in the same direction, mechanical slop. Putting a finger over the spark plug hole also tells you the valves are closed - compression stroke.

 

[redtruck12]

I'm pretty sure that the picture that Ian graciously supplied is of a "bolt on " pulley and not the harmonic balancer which would not be 1 piece unless it were a fluid damper which I'm pretty sure it is not.

I don't currently have a distributored engine.... But would expect that the timing makers would be on the balancer and notthe pulley.
If the marks are on the bolt on pulley, I would assume that it could be bolted on in the wrong place.

There appears to be a 5th hole for proper correlation to the crank?...
Can anyone verify where the marks are located?

 

[p76rangie]

It is too difficult to find when the piston is at the top with the heads on. The movement of the piston as the crank cycles through the uppermost position is so light that you need to use a dial gauge to find TDC.

The movement in the piston is a lot more obvious when the piston is on its stroke. That is why I have suggested using a screw driver, or some other measuring stick, when the piston is well before and after the top of the stoke.

 

[p76rangie]

I'm pretty sure that the picture that Ian graciously supplied is of a "bolt on " pulley and not the harmonic balancer which would not be 1 piece unless it were a fluid damper which I'm pretty sure it is not.

The photo is exactly the same as what is on the vehicle in question.

 

[redtruck12]

There is no need to worry about whether it is on the compression stroke or not if you are checking the timing mark on the crank pulley. One turn on the crank is one cycle on the piston. The compression stroke only matters if you are trying to line up the rotor button for that cylinder to fire. That is, it takes 2 turns on the crank to turn the rotor button once.

You should find that the pulley is solid, so there is no outer ring to slip. It would be extremely difficult for the key to break, but I suppose some clown may have left the key out when assembling it.

I am not even sure that you will see the keyway unless you remove the pulley completely. These are some photos from one of my engine rebuilds, the slot sits a fair way back and I can't see it on the photo of the front of the pulley. It would make sense if it didn't come all the way through as it would reduce the chance of oil leaks out the shaft.

Your picture shows a bolt on pulley, I assume that the balancer is hiding behind it in the picture.
My most recent query was " where are the timing marks" on the balancer or on the pulley?

 

[p76rangie]

Your picture shows a bolt on pulley, I assume that the balancer is hiding behind it in the picture.
My most recent query was " where are the timing marks" on the balancer or on the pulley?

If you want to refer to it as a "balancer", the pulley is bolted to it. It is a solid piece of machined metal. It is not a two part harmonic balancer that you would see on many vehicles. So the outer section cannot slip out of sync with the inner section.

"To prevent this vibration, a harmonic balancer is attached to the front part of the crankshaft. The damper is composed of two elements: a mass and an energy dissipating element. The mass resists the acceleration of the vibration and the energy dissipating (rubber/clutch/fluid) element absorbs the vibrations."

 

[CT090]

Are we in one of those terminology discussions again? In the US, the common vernacular for this item is a harmonic balancer, regularly shortened to "balancer". This is whether or not the item possesses an integral bob weight for the purpose of the dynamic balance of the engine's reciprocating components. Right or wrong, the vernacular wasn't typically altered in general discussion even though calling it a damper in all situations is technically correct and balancer in others is in only some. It's uncommon to hear the word damper used when referring to this item.

I've never had a balancer/damper/pulley adapter off of one of these particular engines, but I've seen more than a few Rover 4.0/4.6's and am pretty familiar with the original Buick engine. Those had two-part dampers. This engine does not?

 

[p76rangie]

Do we have to get into these stupid debates on everything. I was responding to the two posts below that suggested the outer ring on the pulley may have slipped. I was just pointing out that the 3.9's and 4.2's did not have a two part harmonic balancer. They are solid. Therefore there is no outer ring to move. You are correct in saying that the 4.0's and 4.6's do have a harmonic balancer, but this is not what is being discussed.

It sound more likely that the harmonic balancer (crank pulley) outer ring has slipped.

I second that. If it slipped, it's not done moving. If the ring comes loose it will likely break the front cover, killing the oil pump and maybe bending the crank snout. balancer keys can shear- and this balancer isn't a press fit.